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Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

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161–170 of 203 posts

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#161

They'd all start trying to find their way into project management or design or something. Being able to code is an important part of being a software developer but being able to code makes you no more of a software developer than learning newton's laws of motions makes you a mechanical engineer. There are edge cases, debugging, scalability, one off errors integration, backups, etc. We tried this with VB and Acces and…

Yeah it turns out to be a mess, but it sometimes gets businesses off the ground. It’s crazy to think how much of the world’s software really consists of spreadsheets and macros. Would you rather have a lot of businesses operating successfully with “poor” software or much fewer businesses operating with “good” software?

I'm way too young to have experienced this myself and maybe this is something that has over-all been forgotten, but going back a few decades and looking at computer content from the 70s/80s it's amazing how crazy people got about spreadsheets. And that's for a good reason: It was a massive productivity boost.

These things have been driving our economy for a few decades at insane levels of productivity.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#162

Business/career implications aside, normalizing people thinking about computers as tools that execute arbitrary instructions is an almost purely good thing. I can't think of many other social trends that would be more beneficial for increasing general support for user agency, data interoperability, sideloading/modding, etc... we should applaud every single attempt to democratize coding and lower barriers of entry. It…

"Computer Science was always supposed to be taught to everyone, and it wasn’t about getting a job: A historical perspective" https://computinged.wordpress.com/2021/11/26/computer-scienc...

I think that’s probably the opinion of many academic focused people about their profession.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#163

I've worked with several of these tools: Power Platform, Mendix, and Outsystems. I despise the terms no code-and low-code. A better term is "visual programming" (as an alternative to text based programming). You should still follow some basic software development principles - Outsystems training in particular is excellent in this regard. There definitely is an appetite for these tools. There is a class of business/op…

+1 on these tools opening up people's imagination of what's possible. They're the experts in their domain, and having these tools allow them to project what they know onto a system that makes them more productive and efficient.

If you don't mind answering, what were the kinds of apps or processes that business/ops folks you worked with made?

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#164
post #64

One of the main differences I see on the road to learning to code has nothing to do with the tools; it’s the thought process. A major hurdle is trying to get the business people to coherently express what they want. They seem to have a general sense of how something should go, but can’t actually put it down on paper. Or when they do, it looks different than what they imagined (simply because the required logic doesn’…

I don’t think that having a knack for math necessarily matters for making a good programmer. I’ve known many good engineers who were drawn to programming because math was hard for them and they wanted to learn how to get the computer to do it for them. Ironically, coming to understand programming can be a way to understand math better. One of the best programmers I know is a philosophy major, who thinks of code like…

Math has two things that are part of it that are a key part of software development.

There is the "this doesn't change." In many other jobs you can bend the thing you are working with to your will. Bend that pipe or apply just a bit more force here. Having plumbing being off by a little is often good enough for the tolerances.

Math, you can't do that. There is no way to push a bit harder and make one value a different value. Yes, there are ways to manipulate systems of equations - but at the heart of it, you have to submit and match the mental model of math rather than being able to impose your will on the material.

Carpentry? The wood doesn't bend the way you want it to? You can blame the wood, throw it out and start the process again. It may be costly over time, but doing the same thing may have different results the next time.

Software development and math - if you do the same thing again, it doesn't change.

The second part of this is the how you approach a very large problem and apply an algorithmic approach to breaking it down into smaller and smaller problems until they are solvable.

That isn't a "you can't use that approach on carpentry or plumbing" (and it is often that you do), but rather that it is necessary to do this in math and software development.

The knack for math is more about the acceptance of the inflexibility of numbers and computers along with the nature of the tools used to solve those problems. That said, some of the tooling for one or the other may be difficult to get your mind around. Calculus and derivatives and matrices... they are things that the tools to solve them and I go blank with them. I also know a sysadmin who was a math major who is proficient in PowerShell, but the parts of strongly typed larger codebase and he appears to have similar distain for it that I do for matrices and calculus.

> Most of the time the elegant software solutions come not from writing brilliant code, but from reframing the problem so that simple code can solve it.

This is also at the core of solving the harder math problems.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#165
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it helps to be a systems-thinker, and to be able to zoom out and ask “what are we really trying to accomplish here.” Most of the time the elegant software solutions come not from writing brilliant code, but from reframing the problem so that simple code can solve it. This is exactly what math as a subject in school teaches you. Other subjects can too, but math seems to uniquely challenge people to really bend their…

> This is exactly what math as a subject in school teaches you Does it? My encounters with it at any place of formal education have all been about memorizing and practicing arbitrary operations. No intuition required.

Yes, every math curriculum teaches you to find the real problem instead of getting distracted by details. For example, you learn that adding together 5 apples with 7 apples is actually the same problem as adding together 5 cows with 7 cows. Math education was always about finding the core most pure representation of problems and learning how to solve those. That kind of thinking is what you need to understand to get good at programming.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#166

I've worked with several of these tools: Power Platform, Mendix, and Outsystems. I despise the terms no code-and low-code. A better term is "visual programming" (as an alternative to text based programming). You should still follow some basic software development principles - Outsystems training in particular is excellent in this regard. There definitely is an appetite for these tools. There is a class of business/op…

> in my experience these tools open the imagination of what is possible and even more backend support is needed over time.

I just don't buy the argument that visual programming tools are inherently more creative or imaginative than text-based programming tools because at some point, you are going to be constrained to the UI, which always comes with tradeoffs.

I recently used a visual programming environment for a work project, and I went into it thinking that it would be a fun and interesting way to program and very quickly turned to hating it. The visual aspect of the tool constantly got in my way and I quickly found myself wishing I could accomplish what I was trying to do in my text editor instead of this godforsaken web UI.

The error messaging in the tool was so bad that I wound up just intercepting the necessary HTTP calls and debugging those instead because it was so much simpler and informative than trying to navigate this "Disney World" UI that looked great with a trash UX.

I'd be OK with a visual programming tool that gives users the option to go straight to the code layer if they choose, but I've worked for so many software companies in my career that I'm just not confident that most companies would be able to ship anything with a dev UX that comes close to working with code directly. You can't get away with "happy path"-ing a visual coding tool, which is how so many companies build software these days.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#167
post #20

What an ego shattering revelation it would be if it turned out just about everyone can be good at coding. Being able to code is what qualifies us to know everything about everything!

See it's not really ego. I'd say most people could be good at coding. But most people could be good electricians, and plumbers and mechanics, and carpenters, and ... well and heaps of other things. It's that it all takes training, and time in. It all takes reading and learning new things. It's not a question of could they be good. It's a question of, do they want to. I don't think most people want to be good at it.

Spot on. I think a piano is the best example. No one sits down at the piano and can just rip the first time.

Almost anyone though can learn to play piano if they practice enough. You don't have to be the best in the world either to make good music.

Then there is a huge difference between being a great piano player and being a great composer of music in a creative sense.

Culturally though, I would think we are going backwards. I feel like I would know so much less in this area if I was 25 years younger and grew up with a phone instead of a PC.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#168

For those who are skeptical of no-code/low-code, I am too, but here's perhaps a useful intuition pump / prompt for thought. Excel is a low-code tool backed by a scripting language for customization (VBA). There's no argument that this tool has enormous business value and is basically never, ever going away. So, what can't Excel do, and does it make sense for there to be another low-code tool that fills those niches?…

> (I kind of hate Alteryx at my company but it's not the software's fault, it's the company being stingy with licenses which makes people's workflows harder to learn about)

This brings up a great counter-argument to visual programming tools, which is vendor lock-in. We talk about this a lot on the cloud architecture side, but surely this also becomes a concern if a commercial visual programming tool becomes an integral part of one's core business domain. And if the solution to this problem is some sort exportable code, then what's the point?

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#169

Business/career implications aside, normalizing people thinking about computers as tools that execute arbitrary instructions is an almost purely good thing. I can't think of many other social trends that would be more beneficial for increasing general support for user agency, data interoperability, sideloading/modding, etc... we should applaud every single attempt to democratize coding and lower barriers of entry. It…

It almost seemed like that global working knowledge of computers as tools would be the new norm, up until the early 2000s. In my own practice I saw more and more snall business owners writing their own websites and simple systems before coming to me to improve or polish up what they had. I always applauded that and I always try to make sure my clients have a full mental picture of what's really happening inside apps…

> Sadly there's been a concerted effort by the FAANGs, mainly, to turn everything into an appliance and take that power away from users.

That's because user education doesn't scale or pay well.

Scale, because some users are certainly intractable idiots who can't do basic addition. But even if you solve that hard problem, what have you accomplished? You've taught users how to control their own computers.

Which ultimately compresses the margin you're able to extract by artificially limiting features in your ecosystem.

If a user can glue together a storage backend themselves, fewer of them will use your cloud storage offering.

It's far easier, simpler, and more consistent and profitable to infantilize users, carve up your feature tiers with a simple pricing strategy, and maintain high margins.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#170

I've worked with several of these tools: Power Platform, Mendix, and Outsystems. I despise the terms no code-and low-code. A better term is "visual programming" (as an alternative to text based programming). You should still follow some basic software development principles - Outsystems training in particular is excellent in this regard. There definitely is an appetite for these tools. There is a class of business/op…

Visual programming is an idea that keeps coming up because there are no examples of it, therefore it would seem like a great innovation.

Because there are no examples of it is precisely why it’s hard to do. Those who try either end up with something too application specific to be extended, or something too abstract to be used.

Take UML, it took the abstract route. It has many diagrams, it even has flow charts. It was big in the ‘90s and never amounted to much. Turns out that to implement something in UML is harder than just writing the code it maps to in the first place.

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