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PG's Rarely Asked Questions

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Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#161

Post by AmericanOP »

jackfoxy wrote: post #112
mdiep wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see a full list of all the books you read and the order in which you read them. I recently started reading The Story of Civilization and augmenting it with other works seems like a wonderful idea.

I've meant to compile this list, so you just inspired me. I wish the Durants had had the stamina for one more volume. I don't know much about the European revolutions of 1848 and would have like to read about that time from them. I already had read a lot of ancient Greek literature in translation as well as The Pentateuch , all the historical books of the Old Testament and the Gospels . Western Civilization springs f…

You may have seen Ideas: A History of Thought and Invention by Watson. Could be a good umbrella book to tie it all together.

Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#162

Post by forensic »

philwelch wrote: post #149
forensic wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your definition of "important" is deeply subjective.

The entire question is deeply subjective, which just underlines my bemusement at people accusing pg of ignorance for seeming to take a given position on the question.

When you talk like that you sound like someone who equates 'subjective' with 'useless'

The subjective is very important which is precisely the value of philosophy and other liberal arts.

Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#163

Post by shin_lao »

I'm not sure the advice about "not becoming a pointy haired boss" is any good.

Not all structures can stay small enough to avoid management. The startup phase is just an initial phase that will dysfunction as the number of employees grow.

Additionally, I don't think that having a manager who programs is a way to increase management quality.

So how do you get good management? There's no simple answer to that, it's a central problem to all companies as they grow.

Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#164

Post by johnx123-up »

Volpe wrote: post #135
nl wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specialization is an adaptation that seems wasteful when it isn't needed but makes a huge increase to efficiency when it is. Yes, architects and test designers can be a waste. But they can also act to make developer's lives easier. Good architects can code, but usually act at a higher level - making sure different projects (a) know about each other, and (b) work together. That's important because teams tend to focus…

> Good architects can code... Is synonymous with good developers are also good architects. I think (if I can articulate my thoughts correctly) my meaning was, that there is an obsession with breaking tasks into specific roles that are then the sole responsibility of one person. To the point of inefficiency (given the number of people you have to talk to for a given feature). I don't agree that specialisation is waste…

> Is synonymous with good developers are also good architects.

But, most architects are lazy genius. Only way to utilize their skills is not allowing them to code, but letting them designs and coach.

Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#165

Post by kragen »

imjk wrote: post #157
kragen wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like most of Gladwell's ideas, it falls apart under the least examination. Consider a neurosurgeon. Perhaps after ten thousand hours of surgery she was an expert in surgery. But perhaps only a quarter of that time was spent performing neurosurgery. Does that mean she's not an expert neurosurgeon? Perhaps, then, after ten thousand hours of neurosurgery she has become an expert neurosurgeon. But maybe only 5% of that t…

Is it unreasonable to think that if someone has put in ten thousand hours into a general field such as programming (across various languages, as opposed to just focus on one language) that there are enough general principles to extrapolate for them to be considered an expert programmer? Is your argument against Gladwell's idea (not really even his idea) that the professions he site has too many sub-components that un…

> Is it unreasonable to think that if someone has put in ten thousand hours into a general field such as programming (across various languages, as opposed to just focus on one language) that there are enough general principles to extrapolate for them to be considered an expert programmer?

Well, maybe. But maybe Jeff Fox is right, and you really need ten thousand hours of programming in Forth to perform at an expert level programming in Forth. And, given IBM's historical turnover, it wouldn't be surprising if performing at an expert level maintaining DB2 required not just ten thousand hours of programming, but ten thousand hours of programming in PL/M on DB2, in order to know your way around that particular codebase well enough to perform well. Certainly the ramp-up time is likely to be longer on that codebase than on something more modern.

But maybe we should go in the other direction — maybe Bill Gates is right, and it only takes a year or two of programming to perform within an epsilon of your best possible performance, and it's really something broader, like "engineering design of artifacts with human users", that needs a whole ten thousand hours of practice to master — not merely programming as such.

My point is that these can't all be correct. Being an expert at engineering design of artifacts with human users implies that you're an expert at programming, which implies that you're an expert at programming in any context: in Forth, in PL/M in the core of DB2, on the space shuttle. Being an expert surgeon entails being expert at tying sutures, but it surely doesn't entail spending ten thousand hours practicing the tying of sutures.

Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#166

Post by tentonwire »

Volpe wrote: post #108
sthlm wrote: post #13

The pointy-haired boss is a manager who doesn't program. So the surest way to avoid becoming him is to stay a programmer. What tempts programmers to become managers are companies with old-fashioned corporate structure, where the only way to advance in salary and prestige is to go into management. I have to disagree with that. I've met many people, especially in larger enterprises, who started in development but then…

> Almost anyone can learn playing the guitar, but it takes a special talent to excel at it. Curious about this notion of 'special talent' - So some people are just born to be better guitar players? Are you saying that something in the brain is pre-wired to be a better guitar player? I'd say for a claim like that, you need a citation (preferably multiple). In my opinion: You can excel at anything you like, you just ha…

I partially agree with the GP, except I would say it takes a special talent to excel at it in a given amount of time. A "special talent" in this case would be a predisposition to learning how to play a guitar.

>Are you saying that something in the brain is pre-wired to be a better guitar player?

Yes, whether due to nature or nurture, I would say certain people will be faster at learning how to play the guitar, and thus, be a better guitar player given an equal amount of exposure. Of course, you could always put more time into it, but there is only a finite amount of time available to a given individual.

No citations, but I believe this agrees with the general consensus. In fact, I would be greatly interested if anyone could provide studies showing the contrary.

Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#167

Post by mhartl »

jackfoxy wrote: post #112
mdiep wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see a full list of all the books you read and the order in which you read them. I recently started reading The Story of Civilization and augmenting it with other works seems like a wonderful idea.

I've meant to compile this list, so you just inspired me. I wish the Durants had had the stamina for one more volume. I don't know much about the European revolutions of 1848 and would have like to read about that time from them. I already had read a lot of ancient Greek literature in translation as well as The Pentateuch , all the historical books of the Old Testament and the Gospels . Western Civilization springs f…

Quick question: Is Origen really the name of Darwin's book, or is it just misspelled? You (mis?)spelled "Origin" the same way everywhere, which makes me wonder...

P.S. I'm heartened to see Mises and Hayek on your list. I recommend adding Burke and (especially) Carlyle. If you can fully digest Carlyle, your fear for democracy and republican government will turn to panic, and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete.

Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#168

Post by robertk »

sthlm wrote: post #13

The pointy-haired boss is a manager who doesn't program. So the surest way to avoid becoming him is to stay a programmer. What tempts programmers to become managers are companies with old-fashioned corporate structure, where the only way to advance in salary and prestige is to go into management. I have to disagree with that. I've met many people, especially in larger enterprises, who started in development but then…

"And a manager who was a distinguished developer will be much better suited for leading a team of developers -- even if he doesn't program any longer. "

I am not so sure about that. I would say a distinguished manager who was a developer might satisfy your criterion. Social skills, leadership, empathy, and other such traits might be (perhaps even overwhelmingly) more important. That suggests an interesting application of the Peter principle. It seems to me quite possible that promoting the worst developers will lead to (on average) better managers, since we would not be removing the best developers from the development pool (and thus lowering the average competency of the developers), while--assuming people skills are in the large independent from coding skills and come from a normal distribution--the promotee's people skills will likely be better than their coding skills.

Really quite counterintuitive, but to me, a cool idea.

Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#169

Post by robertk »

tentonwire wrote: post #166
Volpe wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost anyone can learn playing the guitar, but it takes a special talent to excel at it. Curious about this notion of 'special talent' - So some people are just born to be better guitar players? Are you saying that something in the brain is pre-wired to be a better guitar player? I'd say for a claim like that, you need a citation (preferably multiple). In my opinion: You can excel at anything you like, you just ha…

I partially agree with the GP, except I would say it takes a special talent to excel at it in a given amount of time. A "special talent" in this case would be a predisposition to learning how to play a guitar. >Are you saying that something in the brain is pre-wired to be a better guitar player? Yes, whether due to nature or nurture, I would say certain people will be faster at learning how to play the guitar, and th…

What about Salman Khan's TED talk, where he shows that it is a frequent occurrence that kids stumble on a math concept, but then rapidly catch up or exceed their peers. If learning as a general phenomenon occurs in plateaus, but turns out linearly the same in the long run for most everybody (like a graph of the prime counting function seems choppy up close but a line out far), perhaps it is the case we intuitively think some people have a talent, because they didn't experience any early plateaus, but experience some later instead, when they aren't under as careful scrutiny. In other words, it might be a statistical phenomenon of the learning progression (assuming the plateaus are uniformly randomly distributed). Having thought a lot about this issue, I think it is closer to the truth.

In any case, I second the request for more studies.

Re: PG's Rarely Asked Questions

#170

Post by sthlm »

Volpe wrote: post #108
sthlm wrote: post #13

The pointy-haired boss is a manager who doesn't program. So the surest way to avoid becoming him is to stay a programmer. What tempts programmers to become managers are companies with old-fashioned corporate structure, where the only way to advance in salary and prestige is to go into management. I have to disagree with that. I've met many people, especially in larger enterprises, who started in development but then…

> Almost anyone can learn playing the guitar, but it takes a special talent to excel at it. Curious about this notion of 'special talent' - So some people are just born to be better guitar players? Are you saying that something in the brain is pre-wired to be a better guitar player? I'd say for a claim like that, you need a citation (preferably multiple). In my opinion: You can excel at anything you like, you just ha…

I wasn't actually arguing that people are born to be better at anything, although I suppose this is the general consensus.

Talent = "a special natural ability or aptitude" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Talent)

Aptitude = "capability; ability; innate or acquired capacity for something" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aptitude)

Like tentonwire argued, whether it's nature or nurture, people are better at some things than others.

From what I understand, you are effectively making the argument that anyone can excel at anything. In this case, I also concur with tentonwire, that the burden might be on you to prove that hypothesis.

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