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Gemini is Solutionism

xn--gckvb8fzb.com

161–170 of 227 posts

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#161
post #159

I'm not yet sure how I feel about Gemini (I like inline links), but this post makes me think it's starting to gain some traction. It's past the "first they ignore it" and "then they laugh at it" phases and now into the "then they fight it" phase. Given that the mainstream stack we all are dependent on has foundational problems as OP acknowledges, language like "solutionism at its worst" feels counter-productive. Sure…

> language like "solutionism at its worst" feels counter-productive[...] why not let a thousand flowers bloom? Because resources are not infinite. Gemini sucks the air out of the room. > Sometimes an adage is trotted out that goes roughly like this: Welp, it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing!¶ And sometimes that's true. It's at least widely understood to be true, I think.¶ What I don't see mentioned, ever,…

Yeah, I just axiomatically disagree with this sort of control-obsessed, zero-sum thinking. Good ideas have always had to compete with other new ideas in addition with incumbent old ones. There is always an organizational challenge in addition to the technical one. If whatever you want to happen is threatened by Gemini, it's not good enough. If you want to wait until everyone else stops trying new ideas, please say hello to the heat death of the universe for me.

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gemini does not prevent you from having any of those things. I strongly disagree. By willingly limiting the markup, gemini actively tries to prevent you from doing these things. In contrast, what's wrong with the web is everything JavaScript and some early design issues with CSS, but HTML is good (although it could be simplified/improved). xHTML more specifically is easy to parse and extensible so that different cl…

I respect your disagreement, but I feel like you're disagreeing against the wrong point here though. The main difference between gemini (the protocol) and http, isn't that a gemini page need only contain text and be deprived of all other kinds of context. The gemini protocol does not stop you from interacting with specific filetypes or other protocols, any more than http does. It's a protocol. It's up to people imple…

> E.g. the lagrange browser downloads images and displays then inline in the page

That's true, but it's based on opportunistic guesses, not semantics, which prevents many use-cases (including alt-text for accessibility of images). For example, we could do the same with video, but what about alternative soundtracks/captions? HTML has and . Building a browser based on auto-guessing which link is related to which one and what the relationship is between those is... hazardous in my view.

> this allows the user to be in control over how these potentially abusable externalities should be handled, rather than ceding that control to the webmaster

I love that argument! But that was also the premise for the web, and i don't understand why we're not enforcing it there. CSS was supposed to permit user stylesheets, and JS empower users to script their interactions with the server. I would argue the problem with the web is it has moved away from declarative to imperative model where the server dictates your rendering. I can see how gemini addresses this by removing extensible declarative elements altogether, but i don't think that's the only way.

Personally, i think adding more semantic elements in HTML (eg. no-JS web components) would make client-side sheets more realistic while allowing the webmaster to propose a specific stylesheet for their recommended UI/UX. Removing the semantics is not gonna help empower clients, except when it comes to plaintext content. So, adding a new content-type over HTTP? Sure. Just throw in some CommonMark: it's well-specified and more or less complete (depending on your use-case). Adding a simpler protocol for delivering content? Why not, but it's not that easy to future-proof: HTTP is arguably more complex, but has some interesting properties such as content-type/encoding negociation or decoupling from transport security (for .onion/.i2p/DANE or any other future technology).

Just to be clear i like gemini very much and i've been wanting to support gemlog to my blog for a while. I just think there's room for some other technical foundations to explore the political promises of gemini.

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#163
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a domain containing Katakana, something most English keyboards would not be able to type What browser are you using? Mine (Vivaldi) displays the domain as its standard Punycode ASCII representation: https://xn--gckvb8fzb.com

Here's how it looks for me in Firefox. https://i.imgur.com/HJxJVJj.png

My Firefox browser shows the punycode as well, potentially something with your configuration? Only Japanese characters that Firefox renders is the name of the tab, URL itself is using the romanized characters.

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not the type of simpler pages that some users want. And yet most of these users don't use lynx... > Only complaint I have about Gemini is the absolute requirement for SNI. Not every IP addresss will necessarily be hosting multiple Gemini sites. Under the current protocol, even addresses hosting only a single site must require SNI. That makes no sense. If you're only hosting 1 site, isn't the privacy leak negligible…

"If you're only hosting 1 site, isn't the privacy leak negligible because there is a 1:1 mapping from ip to domain so an attacker can easily determine it." What if it is a company serving advertisers, not an "attacker". Not sure why this myth of effortless, reliable translation from IP to domain name in "real-time" exists amongst HN commenters. Show us who is doing this for the purposes of advertising and how it is w…

> Show us who is doing this for the purposes of advertising and how it is worth the effort and can be relied on.

Why would an advertiser do this? Advertisers are typically in leauge with site operators. Site operators just tell them this data (maybe with rare exceptions like superphish). Advertisers don't do this because they don't need to.

Advertisers are not the adversary tls is meant to thrawt. You don't use the lock on your door to thrawt the person who you invited in and opened the door for.

> Not every site requires SNI (yet "modern" browsers send it anyway).

Its difficult to tell if a site needs it or not at the stage where you send it. The current solution seems to be custom dns records (e.g. what ECH is doing last time i looked)

> Tell us how to reliably^1 translate any IP to a domainname at the same speed as one can sniff SNI, and with no extra effort.

The traditional answer is to just sniff the dns traffic.

Otherwise (e.g. if using DoH) just create a db of popular sites you care about. This is not trivial, but still quite easy and the easiest part of the attack being discussed by far.

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#165

> Bottom line is, if you agree that the modern web has become an awful place, let’s work on changing that for everyone, instead of abandoning it like a bunch of billionaires trying to escape to a different place, before this one collapses. The implication being that the web can be changed? I don't believe that, I believe the web is broken and it's only getting worse by the day. I'm not going to discourage you from tr…

> Sorry, these are not answers for me as a user.

Sure, but there are plenty of users that are out there with different needs than you. Plenty of people out there don't deal with text well. One of the best parts of the web has been the ability to share images and simulations. Gemini space has no 3Blue1Brown and no Khan Academy. You can't watch a master cabinetmaker hand carve some dovetails. Gemini can't display textual math because the only thing text/gemini supports is UTF-8 text. There was talk in the early days of having screen readers and such but it's mostly gone unfollowed up on. There were a lot of debates about other accessibility things but the minimalist faction ended up winning over the pro-accessibility faction.

Gemini is only useful as a user if you're a software hacker who doesn't like math or images or videos or other media and have no accessibility needs. And it's borne out on Gemini space itself, as that is the core demographic of Gemini. To me Gemini feels more like a clique than an open space, where the text-loving cool-kids hang out. As far as internet projects that I feel are more inclusive (which isn't a high bar compared to Gemini), I find Usenet, Yggdrasil, and Secure Scuttlebutt better. There's a lot less waxing and waning about good and evil (and how the Geminauts are good, of course) on those places too.

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#166
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> language like "solutionism at its worst" feels counter-productive[...] why not let a thousand flowers bloom? Because resources are not infinite. Gemini sucks the air out of the room. > Sometimes an adage is trotted out that goes roughly like this: Welp, it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing!¶ And sometimes that's true. It's at least widely understood to be true, I think.¶ What I don't see mentioned, ever,…

Yeah, I just axiomatically disagree with this sort of control-obsessed, zero-sum thinking. Good ideas have always had to compete with other new ideas in addition with incumbent old ones. There is always an organizational challenge in addition to the technical one. If whatever you want to happen is threatened by Gemini, it's not good enough. If you want to wait until everyone else stops trying new ideas, please say he…

I don't know what you mean by "control-obsessed", and I'm not a zero-summer generally, but zero-summability is relevant to what's going on with Gemini. A person who spends 250 man-hours working on Gemini is not going to get that back. Likewise, a project that would have benefited from that person's enthusiasm had Gemini not existed is not going to.

> If whatever you want to happen is threatened by Gemini

I don't think you're conceptualizing the criticism correctly. This is not "B is better than A". This is a case where B never comes along because A exists. The person who would otherwise catalyze B's existence and success doesn't, because they think that A is sufficient and/or anyone they might talk to about B would just respond, "I dunno; isn't that what A is for?" You can see this with Mozilla, for example. (As a former Mozillian, that's what I had in mind at the time I wrote the linked blog post.) I have become especially sensitive to this after my experience between 2006–2013 and seeing the contrast of that time period vs Mozilla's role over the last 10 years—which is basically a black hole that keeps people from effectively organizing anything that resembles the early days of Firefox development. I recognized something similar after moving to Austin in 2014 and signing up for lots of volunteer events that were by-and-large just organized to be ways for affluent young professionals to feel like they're doing good by burning their attention surpluses, whether or not any of those events were actually a worthwhile use of those resources. See also:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/3p3CYauiX8oLjmwRF/purchase-f...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10029811

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7302645

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/plastic-wars/

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-...

> If you want to wait until everyone else stops trying new ideas

That's the opposite of my position—which is that Gemini is sucking the air out of the room.

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#167

> Bottom line is, if you agree that the modern web has become an awful place, let’s work on changing that for everyone, instead of abandoning it like a bunch of billionaires trying to escape to a different place, before this one collapses. The implication being that the web can be changed? I don't believe that, I believe the web is broken and it's only getting worse by the day. I'm not going to discourage you from tr…

> The implication being that the web can be changed?

Yes - the slice you visit can be changed for you by using the right user-agent (as suggested in TFA).

> When I browse the gemini space, I'm guaranteed to not be flooded with ads, harmful javascript, etcetra

Why can't gemini space be defined by "Content-type: text/gemini" sites linking to each other and/or a limited functionality browser that doesn't render content you don't like?

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#168

> Bottom line is, if you agree that the modern web has become an awful place, let’s work on changing that for everyone, instead of abandoning it like a bunch of billionaires trying to escape to a different place, before this one collapses. The implication being that the web can be changed? I don't believe that, I believe the web is broken and it's only getting worse by the day. I'm not going to discourage you from tr…

> Sorry, these are not answers for me as a user. Sure, but there are plenty of users that are out there with different needs than you. Plenty of people out there don't deal with text well. One of the best parts of the web has been the ability to share images and simulations. Gemini space has no 3Blue1Brown and no Khan Academy. You can't watch a master cabinetmaker hand carve some dovetails. Gemini can't display textu…

> Sure, but there are plenty of users that are out there with different needs than you.

That's another discussion altogether. I agree Gemini is too limited, and I said as much in another comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30069716

The fact that Gemini is not what I want does not invalidate the opinion that the web is broken, and Gemini provides answers for that in its niche. Likewise, other people wanting other things doesn't invalidate anything. We don't exactly have to choose one technology and solve all the world's problems with it. I'm ok with Gemini being what it is and I'm not pretending it is (nor should it be) everything for everyone. It's not much for me, but it's something.

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#169

I think people just want something to rant about. Gemini folks maintain Gemini for themselves using their own hardware and their own time, so I think they can do whatever they think its best for them. If they want to strip HTTP and remove all cool features it has, it's their problem, not ours. If they want to treat content as text only, again, it's their problem, not ours. If they want to publish their content as Gem…

Tech companies will straight up ban you for unspecified reasons determined by some algorithm no one understands, with no recourse.

It doesn't get any more "exclusionary" than that.

Re: Gemini is Solutionism

#170
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I click a link in a Gemini browser, I know for sure that it will not start loading and running a ton of resource-intensive scripts. I know that it will not start autoplaying audio or video. I know that it will display fine in plain text, every single time - so it works in my terminal, in Emacs, on my phone, etc. And I know it will be fast. With a `text/gemini` content type over HTTP/1.1 you could just use cURL,…

How would a text/gemini content type guarantee that links did not go to pages with those issues? And given that HTTP has content negotiation, how could you ever be assured that a given link goes to a text/gemini page?

Tag the link with a flag, then have the user agent refuse to load the links if it comes back with any other content type.
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