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How to quit like a boss

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Re: How to quit like a boss

#161

Post by Dayshine »

Nursie wrote: post #112
Dayshine wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when the company intends to let you go, they don't ask for your opinion. Two-week notice is professional and more than enough American culture is so bizarre. Here in the UK notice (in both directions) is usually contractually 1 month after 6 months, sometimes up to 3 months. If they really want to get rid of you they can pay you to job seek full-time for a few months, which is great. In practice, you get several mo…

In the UK 3 months is unusual, I've only ever heard about it for management positions. In tech roles 1 month is standard AFAICT. Personally I'd never work on a three month term, I consider it abusive, it completely kills your ability to find a new role before handing in your notice. You'd have to be really confident of your skills and of the market before you made that leap. And you can be fired for all sorts of reas…

I've never had an employer unwilling to wait 3 months for me to start.

> And you can be fired for all sorts of reasons after 2 years, including poor performance, but there has to be a reason and you have to be given notice and a chance or three to fix the problem.

If you're working a tech role you have the money to get legal advice and help avoid illegal firing. They can't just make up poor performance.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#162

Post by YZF »

rambambram wrote: post #148
YZF wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the parent but I disagree with you. I am a manager in a large tech company and we care about our employees. We will not fire/lay them off/relieve them of their duty for any reason or not reason. We treat them as we expect to be treated. We will support them if they have some unusual circumstances. We do this because it is the right thing to do, and because it makes business sense. These are not mutually…

> Being ruthless to your employees doesn't make business sense. Until it does.

Not really. It's a market. This is true if employees don't care. But if you avoid these places like the plague then it won't make business sense. Unless you're ok with never getting anyone to work for you.

Now if the company's business is failing it obviously can't keep holding on to its employees. Again there is a market question here. Just don't go work for a company that goes through cycles of bad business, layoffs, maybe it's ok, bad business, layoffs.

So it's really up to you if you want to play that game.

The company I work for, throughout its existence, has never been able to hire as many people as it wants to. Its business is doing great. It has had amazing growth with more growth in front of it. It's maybe not as glamorous as some.

I am sure there are plenty of places where there is a good business and you will be treated well. Let's not make it the norm to not treat us well, it's up to all of us. If none of us give this any consideration, ofcourse the market will evolve to fit what we do (I'm sure there'll still be people/companies that do the right thing anyways, but less).

Re: How to quit like a boss

#163

Post by YZF »

throway453sde wrote: post #149
YZF wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the parent but I disagree with you. I am a manager in a large tech company and we care about our employees. We will not fire/lay them off/relieve them of their duty for any reason or not reason. We treat them as we expect to be treated. We will support them if they have some unusual circumstances. We do this because it is the right thing to do, and because it makes business sense. These are not mutually…

> I am a manager in a large tech company and we care about our employees. This is the problem with management roles. Managers opportunity to find new job is so low they are forced to think they are part of the company. The company does not think the same. The same is not true for IC devs, this may not be for long, but currently this the case. I hope people be honest at least over internet.

There's plenty of demand for managers and I can still do "real" ;) work as well.

When I say we I don't just mean "me". I mean all levels up to the CEO. And we demonstrate that all the time, it's not just something we say.

Again, this is still a business, it's not a non-profit, but there is alignment between treating people well and having a good business and finding more great people. Randomly firing people or abusing people, is just stupid. Please don't work at places that do that, not only because you'll get fired, but because that business is hurting its long term success.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#164

Post by YZF »

refurb wrote: post #151
meetingthrower wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but I have been a consultant for very large companies (even mutual insurance cos, with basically zero profit motive), and at the end of they day they will make decisions for the company and not for the person. As in, we got the CEO to fire some of his direct reports that had been working at the company 20+ years. And then it rolled downhill. Don't get romantic with your employer unless you own the company…

Precisely. I have no doubt that there are company that have management that genuinely care. But they are part of a bigger organization and when it comes time to firing/laying off employees, it’s just impossible not to screw employees over (or at least have them feel like they were screwed over). You know lay offs are a couple months off but it’s hush hush. Employees will find out in a couple weeks. Your direct report…

What's the benefit to the company of not letting people know in advance if they know? What you are describing sound like a badly run company.

My company has not laid off a single person in two decades AFAIK. (not to say we won't fire a person if that's just not working out, but broad layoffs). two decades is more than some people stay married ;). so it's definitely a relationship. Could it happen? who knows. Sometimes the business doesn't work out.

Next time you interview somewhere ask them when is the last time they laid off a significant number of people... (or just Google it, it typically makes the news).

Re: How to quit like a boss

#166

Post by Nursie »

Dayshine wrote: post #161
Nursie wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK 3 months is unusual, I've only ever heard about it for management positions. In tech roles 1 month is standard AFAICT. Personally I'd never work on a three month term, I consider it abusive, it completely kills your ability to find a new role before handing in your notice. You'd have to be really confident of your skills and of the market before you made that leap. And you can be fired for all sorts of reas…

I've never had an employer unwilling to wait 3 months for me to start. > And you can be fired for all sorts of reasons after 2 years, including poor performance, but there has to be a reason and you have to be given notice and a chance or three to fix the problem. If you're working a tech role you have the money to get legal advice and help avoid illegal firing. They can't just make up poor performance.

> I've never had an employer unwilling to wait 3 months for me to start.

I've had employers unwilling to wait two weeks, and that was when I was the only person on the market with the specific skills they needed (in the UK). Hell, in later years when I've been contracting the entire job can be done and over in in three months.

Fundamentally if I need someone to fill a role, and if you can't do it for three months but someone else can do it in one, or even better immediately, I'm taking them.

Are the roles you've been in all in very large corporates?

> They can't just make up poor performance.

Of course, but they can fire you for reasons like poor performance if they are well grounded in that evaluation. Clearly it shouldn't be a surprise as your management should have been talking to you and helping you get up to scratch, but it does exist as a way to get rid of someone who is genuinely underperforming. Your post above made it sound like redundancy was the only way.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#167

Post by hinkley »

ubermonkey wrote: post #8

That's an insanely pollyanna take on quitting. What's the worst that could happen? You could get fired for looking for another job. This happens. Most people I know have worked for someone toxic, or worked for a toxic organization. If you work for nice people and things just don't align, yeah, sure, this approach may be fine, but it's by no means universal.

I have never had this happen to me but I'm always prepared to walk out the door the same day I hand in my 2 week's.

Any personal effects that I'm not using regularly have already snuck home with me during the previous week or two. Documentation I've been meaning to write has at least been attempted to be cleaned up.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#168

Post by hn_go_brrrrr »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #158
hn_go_brrrrr wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with my manager (and other managers in the org) all the time. It's fine, we talk about the tradeoffs involved and figure out the best path forward. Every time I hear people worried about disagreeing with management, it's because management are assholes. The managers I work with are good people. They're not perfect, but I do (mostly) trust their competency. I'm also senior enough people can't push me around…

How often do you find that when you disagree with management, the answer is almost always "management vs engineer, management wins"? When are you ever to get management to do anything you need (or want) from them, or is it always on their own terms?

> How often do you find that when you disagree with management, the answer is almost always "management vs engineer, management wins"?

Management only "wins" sometimes, though I don't really view it through a win/loss lens. Usually there's quite a bit of give and take, as we try to figure out what's best.

I can remember engineers being hard-overruled exactly once. A large customer felt we were giving them poor service. Management upended our roadmap to prioritize things to keep the customer happy. Engineers were unhappy about the sudden change of plans, but we did end up keeping the customer. As much as I personally disliked the whole episode, management was probably right to overrule us.

> When are you ever to get management to do anything you need (or want) from them, or is it always on their own terms?

It's a two-way street, but you're correct they ask more of us than we do of them.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#169

Post by blagie »

paulcole wrote: post #91
blagie wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad advice. I hate generalities. Last time I left a firm, there was 12 months notice (and the decision was mutual). That was the right choice for both sides. The organization I'm working at right now, it's not uncommon to give years of notice, mostly heading for retirement. Most tech companies are definitely two weeks, but that's far from the universe.

Something being “not uncommon” at your organization doesn’t make it good advice for anyone else. Unless there’s a contract or an extreme circumstance that demands otherwise, 2 weeks is a courtesy and an employer should be ready for 0 days notice.

That's very... transactional. I prefer organizations with cultures which are more relational.

I spent a lot of time at work. I'd like work to be a community, for my work to be meaningful and interesting, and on the whole, that's more important than making a half a megabuck a year optimizing ad clicks.

I have a job like that, and it doesn't pay as much as FAANG, but you know something: it pays enough, and I'm happy.

I find the whole modern/California transactional culture is toxic to my psychological well-being, from divorce/relationship-hopping culture to job hopping culture to everything else. The whole world doesn't work like that, fortunately. Please don't try to force it to.

(And conversely, I'm fine with the transactional culture existing, so long as I'm not in it)

Re: How to quit like a boss

#170

Post by com2kid »

billllll wrote: post #127
medvezhenok wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of. I think everyone should read "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie. I think in any interaction, if you want to maximize your success, you have to approach it from the frame of reference of the person you are talking to. Put yourself in their shoes, and think about what they care about, what they value, and then whatever you want to do, express it to them with reference to their perspecti…

The thing about "How to win friends..." that isn't explicitly stated is that you are doing the things recommended in the book because you WANT something from them. You want their friendship, so you put yourself in their shoes to help achieve that. In the case of quitting your job, I'm not sure it applies since what you really want to do is to leave. If you have a good relationship with your team and company, by all m…

> In the case of quitting your job, I'm not sure it applies since what you really want to do is to leave. If you have a good relationship with your team and company, by all means be generous with your time. Otherwise, I don't think you'll get much value out of being overly considerate of your old company.

The # of times I've encountered people from my past is staggering.

No reason to needlessly anger people, especially if leaving a good impression just takes a wee bit more effort.

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