Most of these are about wanting control over the design of the software - but releasing their code doesn't have any impact on that - I don't get it? Java is open source - Oracle still tightly controls and manages the design of Java. For example 'Bad design is expensive' - how releasing your source lead to bad design? That's a complete non-sequitur.
They are arguing it does have impact on that. The company that created Java went out of business and was sold to Oracle for a fraction of its original worth. So Java was a business failure -- or at least I'd be interested to see someone defend Java as a business success. So I think it's realistic to at least engage with their argument seriously rather than dismiss it. The argument is that open source licenses are inc…
Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
161–170 of 316 posts
Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
#162Most of these are about wanting control over the design of the software - but releasing their code doesn't have any impact on that - I don't get it? Java is open source - Oracle still tightly controls and manages the design of Java. For example 'Bad design is expensive' - how releasing your source lead to bad design? That's a complete non-sequitur.
I don't really understand the definition of open source. I used to hear people say stuff along the lines of "If you just release the source and don't accept patches then that's not real open source" But the opinion on that has changed I guess?
Free as in freedom: You're free to do whatever you want with the code
Free as in beer: The product does not cost money
Whether or not they accept patches is up to the maintainer, and does not affect the freedom or open source nature of the software
Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't really understand the definition of open source. I used to hear people say stuff along the lines of "If you just release the source and don't accept patches then that's not real open source" But the opinion on that has changed I guess?
I’ve got to agree with you here. While I personally agree with the people commenting about open source being about the license rather than governance, I do not think that was always as widely accepted as it currently is in this comments section. I recall seeing a lot of hostility from people in the past about governance of a licensed project not being in line with ‘open source values,’ for example.
Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
#164Most of these are about wanting control over the design of the software - but releasing their code doesn't have any impact on that - I don't get it? Java is open source - Oracle still tightly controls and manages the design of Java. For example 'Bad design is expensive' - how releasing your source lead to bad design? That's a complete non-sequitur.
>Most of these are about wanting control over the design of the software - but releasing their code doesn't have any impact on that - I don't get it? [...] how releasing your source lead to bad design? The way to interpret his argument is to imagine an alternate past history where Mathematica was open source from the beginning and how that would have lead to an inferior product. He wrote: >[...] I think that it would…
Interaction Design (IxD) isn’t something that can be done piecemeal; it needs to be done top-down, with an overarching vision, to achieve its ends (an intuitive design.) Intuition comes from obvious implicit structure, where you can easily “get into the mind of” the designer, discover their mental model, and then use it to predict how other features will work. If there’s no single designer (or very-tightly-constraining design document) then there’s no unified mental model to learn, and so no intuition.
And there are relatively-few professional designers in the open-source community.
It’s easy and low-friction for a professional programmer to “scratch their own itch” by implementing just one little change in a piece of software, and by that means, FOSS software’s source code quality can be improved piecemeal. But it’s both difficult (you have to re-do everything at once for it to help) and high-friction (hard to convince the software maintainers to accept the change) to contribute a design change to FOSS software. So useful FOSS software design changes are almost impractical (unless the stars align); and so professional designers just don’t bother to even try to take part in the community.
So instead, FOSS software just tends to languish without any unified design vision ever being applied to it. (Or with a bad, arbitrary, and unintuitive design vision being contributed at some point by some inexperienced designer, and being accepted because the maintainers are all programmers with no sense for IxD themselves.)
There’s also the fact that a lot of IxD needs to be informed by data — e.g. user workflow studies — that cost money to run; and FOSS projects don’t tend to have the budget for this, or don’t tend to see it as a priority for spending what budget they do have, since they have no “design advocate” on the team to ask for it.
Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even native python is not as slow as people expect. And scientific languages are terribly slow, see for example loops in Matlab, which are terribly slow.
Mathematica is the worst when it comes to pure number crunching, because they use unstructured arrays. Much more flexible, but much slower.
Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
I never heard it that way. If you can fork it, it's open source, even if contributions are not accepted upstream. If upstream accepts patches but does not allow forks, it's not open source. It's about the license, not the project's governance model.
The way I always understood it is that "open source" and "free software" are orthogonal concepts: Open source = bazaar-style (highly-decentralized development) Not open source = cathedral-style (highly-centralized development) Free software = source code released under a license that grants rights such as freedom to modify, redistribute, own a copy of, etc. (see [1] for the proper definition) Nonfree software = sourc…
Then some people wants to add some romance around it but that is just their own opinion.
Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
#167Their more recent post titled "Six Reasons Why the Wolfram Language Is (Like) Open Source"[1] is even more cringey. Is this directed to managers who need to link to a reasoning against other managers making the claim for open-source alternatives? If so, this assumes those managers aren't that competent, which is insultiong at best. 1: https://blog.wolfram.com/2021/11/30/six-reasons-why-the-wolf...
Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
#168Most of these are about wanting control over the design of the software - but releasing their code doesn't have any impact on that - I don't get it? Java is open source - Oracle still tightly controls and manages the design of Java. For example 'Bad design is expensive' - how releasing your source lead to bad design? That's a complete non-sequitur.
I think the argument is more that open sourcing adds incentives and friction that significantly increase the cost of maintaining control/alignment. Or to put it another way, maintaining good design becomes more expensive in an open source model and people respond to economic gradients, changing outcomes at the margin. I've seen this happen consistently, even when limiting "open sourcing" to throwing a tarball over th…
Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
They are wrong. The term for that is source available. There is absolutely no reason to have any doubt about the true meaning of the term when this definition is on every search result on Googles first page, in Wikipedia, when it's that name of a non-profit that defines it like that and when the page that literally is called opensource.org defines it like that.
Having a domain name doesn’t mean you own a term.
This is not about owning a term, it's simply about the fact that term had a definition that people agree on. The fact that some people don't know about that definition or that some people don't agree with it doesn't change it.
Re: Why Wolfram tech isn’t open source (2019)
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well the guy seems like a VP in corporate, probably would struggle with more than hello world himself...
I think it's far more likely that he is a better computer scientist, and a better programmer, than the vast majority of people you or I know.
There's a lot of information about Jon McLoone available online (personal website, linkedin, etc.), but aside from his degree in Mathematics and a long association with Wolfram (in what appear to be primarily non-technical roles), I couldn't find anything that supports your statement. I'm not saying it's not out there, just that I couldn't find it.