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Fundamentals of Piano Practice

fundamentals-of-piano-practice.readthedocs.io

161–170 of 201 posts

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Primarily, it's about payoff / benefit. Imagine you're 40 years old and you've never played an instrument. You have limited ambition - you want to have fun and play a little bit around campfire. How do you start, let's say on a guitar: 1. I show you G, C, D chords and print out a simple, easily understandable chart you can take home. You now can play hundreds of songs after 30 min lesson and a few mins of practice. Y…

> Second point, I firmly believe, especially for Hacker-News audience, is that learning staff notation too early is counter-productive. I'd like to add that in 2021 learning writing and reading is counter-productive. Text-to speech and vice versa software is widely available, and spelling rules for English require a ridiculous effort for little benefit except backwards compatibility with legacy books. As an adult lea…

I think that's intended as sarcasm, and uncharitably ignores my point was order of priorities, not absolutes; but sure, things like that Should be discussed - e. G. My ex-father-in-law was Insistent that kids MUST be taught cursive. When challenged why, he gave no particular reason other than to repeat it a lot.

More to the point though, Kids ARE taught speech FIRST (as is my point with an instrument)! They in fact DO learn complex sentences and language patterns and communication way way before we teach them writing. We are not even contemplating teaching 1 year olds writing before we teach them language. So you are 100% making my point for me :).

Similarly in languages, I once went through 2 years of learning foreign language by rote memorization of tenses and rules and declensions and it was awful (this was not in North America) . Got nobody in the class anywhere. 10 A-plus students couldn't make a conversational sentence after 2 years. Much more success is accomplished by teaching people here to speak and understand language first.

And again to address different part of your comment and my point: I claim staff notation for people who WANT to understand patterns and theory In music can be counterproductive. Get the feel for relativity of keys first, before we smash C major up your throat. Alphabets by and large aren't that counterproductive, so it's a bit of a false comparison on that level too, though we can have a good discussion of phonetic alphabets vs whatever the heck English has. Staff notation is not inherently logical and representative of patterns in 12 note equal temperament. It's just an archaic system we are stuck in though others have been proposed. It's qwerty! :)

Through all of this tough, I don't see an actual counter argument - this seems to always get people riled up and upset, But why SHOULD an adult wanting to strum or jam and have some fun, be taught staff notation FIRST? What goal does it accomplish, why is that a beneficial order of operation, other than "that's how I was taught"? Let's have a charitable, productive honest discussion :)

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second point, I firmly believe, especially for Hacker-News audience, is that learning staff notation too early is counter-productive. I'd like to add that in 2021 learning writing and reading is counter-productive. Text-to speech and vice versa software is widely available, and spelling rules for English require a ridiculous effort for little benefit except backwards compatibility with legacy books. As an adult lea…

I think that's intended as sarcasm, and uncharitably ignores my point was order of priorities, not absolutes; but sure, things like that Should be discussed - e. G. My ex-father-in-law was Insistent that kids MUST be taught cursive. When challenged why, he gave no particular reason other than to repeat it a lot. More to the point though, Kids ARE taught speech FIRST (as is my point with an instrument)! They in fact D…

Honest question: Did you read my post and write that all by yourself? If yes, why are you so hostile to the idea that music can be effectively communicated through writing and reading? Yes, you can teach a beginner to strum a few chords without any context, but once you want to play with others you need some concepts to be able to communicate and when you have to learn those concepts writing them down is the easy part.

Your language course sounds really odd to me and I'm not sure if I should believe it actually happened.

I don't really get why you are so hung up with C major. Sure, if you play piano the first few pieces are probably in C major unless one of them is Chopsticks but the method books that I have seen have all exercises in different keys almost from the beginning.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's intended as sarcasm, and uncharitably ignores my point was order of priorities, not absolutes; but sure, things like that Should be discussed - e. G. My ex-father-in-law was Insistent that kids MUST be taught cursive. When challenged why, he gave no particular reason other than to repeat it a lot. More to the point though, Kids ARE taught speech FIRST (as is my point with an instrument)! They in fact D…

Honest question: Did you read my post and write that all by yourself? If yes, why are you so hostile to the idea that music can be effectively communicated through writing and reading? Yes, you can teach a beginner to strum a few chords without any context, but once you want to play with others you need some concepts to be able to communicate and when you have to learn those concepts writing them down is the easy par…

- Yes I read your post, though I had the exact same question, as I feel we are talking past each other a bit :- (Yes, I wrote that by myself though that's a strange question to ask :)

- Yes that course was real. Two years of Latin, 1995, Prva Susacka Gimnazija u Rijeci. You can wake me up at 2 am and I can recite "Terra Terrae Terrae Terram Terra Terrae Terrarum Terris Terras Terris" in about 6 seconds (just measured:). And that's literally what our exams were for two years - conjugate this verb; recite declension of this noun; give me a list of propositions; at no point did we actually learn to speak it conversationally, or tested on reading comprehension or speaking skills. Extreme example but it exists!

Now let's see if we can productively engage on same topic together:

- I am not talking about "reading or writing" or "music theory" or "Communicating with other musicians in general". I am making claims very specifically about western music staff notation, being taught first or early, for casually interested potential musicians. Not that "communicating music is unimportant" or "professional musician doesn't need staff notation"

As such my claim specifically is:

- Staff notation is provably and demonstrably not necessary, and I claim not helpful, to either start learning an instrument or communicate with other musicians or learn advanced music theory; and further, a lot of fairly advanced fun can be had with music without learning staff notation.

That's it, that's my claim.

We need to arrive at better understanding of where we disagree. A LOT of very good musicians mentally, subconsciously do not distinguish between "Music theory" and "Staff notation". I am NOT claiming Music Theory is not helpful - I am enjoying it tremendously. Understanding what you're playing and how and why is great! But staff notation is completely lateral to learning Music Theory, as I mentioned above but may get missed.

Some examples that may help see where I'm coming from - You do NOT need Staff notation to:

- Tell your bandmate "hey, can you try doing a riff in E major pentatonic?"

- Understand keys, triads, chords, inversions, intervals, etc; or communicate them

- Learn a chord progression of a song

- Learn a solo, learn to improvise, learn to arrange

.... Whopsie, Sorry, kids are waking up from their nap, I'll write more in couple of hours, I'd be eager to continue this conversation, whether here or on Hangouts/Gmail/Whatsapp/Whatever :). But my central point here is - staff notation is perceived by some as necessary to a) learn music theory b) play an instrument c) communicate musical concepts, and today in 2021 there are plentiful counter examples to that, beyond theoretical discussion :)

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#165
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask you what your path into jazz has been like? I've been playing myself for like 25 years, classically trained for my whole childhood. I've always enjoyed improvisation and love jazz piano so much, but I've found it really hard to build from my very limited improv vocabulary into "serious" jazz, and I've had a hard time learning how to learn jazz, if that makes sense.

It's difficult to give advice in that matter without first hearing you giving a try at improvisation to check where you're starting from. I've started learning jazz at 16 (50 now) and you never cease to learn (obviously), but I can say that obviously different people learn in different ways. Basically I'd say there are 3 parts in learning improvisation: the theoretical part (which is already a complex one because the…

Serendipity stroke with this great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEdtUOGCCnU

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#166
post #68

Have to chime-in here as a piano player since age 7 (so been going for ~28 now), who about 2 years ago got very serious about Jazz. I have stumbled across this book many times, I have read it. It's the single most controversial book that I've read about piano technique and playing that I've found. The author, is not even a player himself (!!!). There's a great summary of reviews about the book here ( https://www.pian…

What is your opinion about the Taubman technique ? rotation and all. Claims to be very RSI resistant and healthy ?

Learning rotation is important and there are lots of Taubman videos on YT that explain it in detail, usually with scales.

In a nutshell, there is the concept of single rotation and double rotation. When finger-to-finger movement is in one direction, like 1,2,3, you use double rotations. When going from 3 to 1, a single rotation. The movements are highly exaggerated for learning and demonstration.

I think it's easy to get hung up on "how can I play piano if I'm rotating my hand all over the place?" In my opinion, a large part of learning rotation and how to use it for slow practice on difficult passages is about freeing your arm and hand so they are not unintentionally opposing movement. Playing with tension or unintentional opposition, especially if you play hours a day, is one way to get RSI (tendonitis).

Here are some excellent YT resources for piano I have bookmarked. Several of these have videos that talk about forearm rotation:

  https://www.youtube.com/user/cedarvillemusic
  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3vYz1SAtcbRhsatydObGQw
  https://www.youtube.com/user/PianistMagazine (Graham Fitch)
  https://www.youtube.com/user/SteveMass1101
  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr0BMA5yu3AS0alkR7kYwEQ
  https://www.youtube.com/user/aw4piano
  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLsMRd097KLJMvkNzC4rYAA
  https://www.youtube.com/c/DanielBarenboim/videos
  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6tpkZhNpJiTnlUgoiUe9QQ

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Did you read my post and write that all by yourself? If yes, why are you so hostile to the idea that music can be effectively communicated through writing and reading? Yes, you can teach a beginner to strum a few chords without any context, but once you want to play with others you need some concepts to be able to communicate and when you have to learn those concepts writing them down is the easy par…

- Yes I read your post, though I had the exact same question, as I feel we are talking past each other a bit : - (Yes, I wrote that by myself though that's a strange question to ask :) - Yes that course was real. Two years of Latin, 1995, Prva Susacka Gimnazija u Rijeci. You can wake me up at 2 am and I can recite "Terra Terrae Terrae Terram Terra Terrae Terrarum Terris Terras Terris" in about 6 seconds (just measure…

Surprisingly (maybe) I don't disagree with a lot of what you said.

Exhibit A: Paul McCartney, who's produced some of the most timeless music ever written, and can't read music.

Exhibit Others: it's too early in the morning for me to think of those. Give me some time.

However, everyone who plays on the studio session to record your composed-by-ear masterpiece for the CD will be an excellent sight reader. Guaranteed. They wouldn't have gotten the gig if they weren't.

"Staff notation" is pretty damn flexible, as you'll learn if you try to write a program to produce it as well as music publishers have done for centuries. You already said it's a way to communicate with other musicians, but I'd just add that oftentimes in popular music, that communication is just a score with a tempo and bar lines marked off, with chords and rests in the bars -- no individual notes.

Furthermore, there's immense room for interpretation: if the chord is G7#13, an experienced player will laugh and say to himself "ok, so that's just an altered seventh, and by the way, I always add a ninth to a seventh chord."

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main takeaways for me were: - Do not try to practice the whole piece at once. Split it into pieces - Start by listening to the piece. If possible get multiple performances/recordings (usually easy with YouTube) to get a feel for different interpretations. - Take the piece and number each measure from 1 to finish. Figure out where the repetitions are, which measures are the easiest, which the hardest (this will di…

That's very good advice if one's well disciplined. The trouble is many of are not and it's why we need a good teacher to keep us on the straight-and-narrow. My teacher was forever nagging me to "play what's written, not my interpretation of it". She'd also tell me to "go home and practice the actual lesson", boring Czerny scales or such, "...and not muck around and waste time playing songbook stuff that I liked the s…

Right now I’m working with a jazz/improvisation teacher and he has me play through a piece once strictly as it’s written, once again strictly but singing the melody, and then the third time through with improvisation on the melody. Sheet music is thrown away as soon as possible. Of course jazz compositions are much shorter than classical pieces, but I do think the premise of getting it down strictly and slowly opening it up is a great way to practice.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main takeaways for me were: - Do not try to practice the whole piece at once. Split it into pieces - Start by listening to the piece. If possible get multiple performances/recordings (usually easy with YouTube) to get a feel for different interpretations. - Take the piece and number each measure from 1 to finish. Figure out where the repetitions are, which measures are the easiest, which the hardest (this will di…

That all seems like pretty solid advice. Chunking the piece up but practicing overlapping parts is particularly good - if you neglect the overlapping part you can end up with obvious 'seams' in the piece when you put it all together. Listening to the piece first is always helpful, but be careful not to become overly dependent on learning by ear - it can cripple your sight reading in the long run. Same goes for separa…

I was a terrible sight reader. My teachers never taught me is that sight-reading is a skill that has to be practiced, just like other piano skills.

I bought a ton of books in this series and started spending time every day playing them:

https://www.amazon.com/Bill-Evans-Jazz-Piano-Solos/dp/145840...

I'm classically trained but really enjoy playing these. They're hard enough to be challenging yet not something you have to practice for months like many classical pieces. An especially good thing for sight reading is that instead of lots of fast passages like in a lot of classical music, there are lots of chords where you have to read and play 8 notes on a beat. With time (I did this for about a year), you start reading entire chords by sight rather than individual notes.

Working to get better at sight reading makes learning new music much more enjoyable. You could probably do it by reading a lot of classical music below your playing level too, but for me, the jazz stuff is a nice break and something different.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#170

Does this book cover how to figure out finger numbering for sheet music that doesn't have finger numbering? By finger numbering I mean the standard scheme where thumb=1, index=2, ..., pinky=5, and the notes on the sheet music have these numbers. This is the biggest mystery to me. I understand there is not a One True Canonical Fingering for a given sequence of notes. But some fingerings make the music much easier than…

Fingering is largely a planning problem. If your RH thumb is on C and the next note is D, it's obvious you play it with 2. But if the next note is the B below, you'd have to do something awkward to play it. So having your RH thumb on C is wrong and you need 2 on that to play the B with your thumb. Unless the next note is the A below. :-)

If you look ahead a bit at a line of music, you can sort of anticipate how many fingers you'll need in the direction you're going and that helps plan which ones to use. But as others have said, knowing how to play scales contributes a lot to your planning skills.

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