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"Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

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Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#161

Post by silverbax88 »

swombat wrote: post #30
edw519 wrote: post #13

What do long hours often represent? Enterprise: Incompetent management, lazy co-workers, and spoiled users. Small Business: Tough competition and limited resources. Startup: Taking advantage of opportunites that may not pass this way again.

That's very succinct, witty, and more or less diametrically opposed to the point of the OP on StackOverflow. Did you read it? :-) He's making the point that regular long hours are always a sign of bad management. I'd tend to agree. Any business can be run in balance with a reasonable lifestyle. If you're working overtime very often on your own business, it's either because you're incompetent, or lazy, or greedy, or f…

100% agree. Long hours once in a while is just part of the dynamic nature of life. A job where the hours are consistently longer is ALWAYS a sign of bad management. Always.

Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#162

Post by deyan »

rtc wrote: post #88
swombat wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a myth of the startup world (a persistent, but mostly incorrect myth). I know successful people with both balanced and unbalanced lives... and the former are definitely happier. I'm not convinced that regular long hours lead to a more competitive business. Particularly when it comes to running a business (as opposed to being a contractor or freelancer, which is a completely different proposition), spen…

I think you're ignoring the group of people who both work smart (as you define) AND work long hours. That combination would probably have the highest correlation with success. It's not either / or.

I think you are missing the point of the thread. The argument was that working long hours gives you trade off with working smart. So it is an either /or, at least to some (in my opinion large) extent.

Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#163

Post by watchandwait »

wisty wrote: post #158
marvin wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you're STILL assuming that the 75-hour work week you would not get a severe case of burnout and turn into a 0-hour work week you for a year, after which going back to the regular schedule would simply not feel like an option. Even if you didn't assume that, there is still an underlying assumption that working harder and getting more more money will in the long run make you happier than working shorter hours and h…

I guess it depends on how much you are making. For 300k, I'll work 75 hours a week and not burn out. The incentive is there. If you con me into working 75 hours a week for 70k, I'll burn out when I realize I've been wasting my time propping up a loser. I'd imagine most people are the same. Pay them enough, and they will cope with terrible conditions. Con them, and they will lose interest a lot faster.

You can still burn out at 300k. Actually, you might be more likely to burn out with a higher salary, because you will find it easier to rationalize abusing yourself by cutting sleep, healthy food, friends, etc.

Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#164

Post by rhizome »

felipemnoa wrote: post #118
rjd wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you take a few edge cases and make them the example for the main stream? I doubt you should ever use Edison or Einstein to ever refer to the average person. Let alone put yourself in the same camp, you'll probably do yourself mental harm via exhaustion. Fine if you have abnormal drive and intelligence go for it. But chances are you are an average person and need to obey the rules of what makes average people happy…

>>So you take a few edge cases and make them the example for the main stream? I could show you many more but why? >>But chances are you are an average person and need to obey the rules of what makes average people happy Yes, do what makes you happy and yes I am an average person but that doesn't mean that I cannot tell you that the sky is blue even if I were blind (I think you know what I mean). What I disliked is th…

You're not including the concept of overtraining, so your example of athletics and its self-evident truth is "not even wrong."

Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#165

Post by rhizome »

dan_manges wrote: post #131
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open floor plans are evil for developers. Whoever started that trend needs to be strung up by their nose hair. There is no better way to ensure no work gets done than putting 10 people in an environment that every two person conversation interrupts (and I believe that "15 minutes to get back into the zone" is a bunch of crap).

We have a dev team of 12 working with an open floor plan, pair programming. We get a lot done. There is no single right way to operate.

"We get a lot done," is pretty meaningless without context. Do you know that the dev team likes it that way?

Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#166

Post by nostrademons »

wisty wrote: post #158
marvin wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you're STILL assuming that the 75-hour work week you would not get a severe case of burnout and turn into a 0-hour work week you for a year, after which going back to the regular schedule would simply not feel like an option. Even if you didn't assume that, there is still an underlying assumption that working harder and getting more more money will in the long run make you happier than working shorter hours and h…

I guess it depends on how much you are making. For 300k, I'll work 75 hours a week and not burn out. The incentive is there. If you con me into working 75 hours a week for 70k, I'll burn out when I realize I've been wasting my time propping up a loser. I'd imagine most people are the same. Pay them enough, and they will cope with terrible conditions. Con them, and they will lose interest a lot faster.

Burnout is an unconscious phenomena - you don't realize you're burning out while you're doing it, and in fact it often feels quite exhilarating. It's pretty easy to be making 300k and suddenly find you just can't perform the job duties that net you that 300k. It's not a matter of choice, determination, or coping, it's a matter of your brain refusing to do the things it needs to do.

Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#167

Post by [deleted] »

wisty wrote: post #158
marvin wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you're STILL assuming that the 75-hour work week you would not get a severe case of burnout and turn into a 0-hour work week you for a year, after which going back to the regular schedule would simply not feel like an option. Even if you didn't assume that, there is still an underlying assumption that working harder and getting more more money will in the long run make you happier than working shorter hours and h…

I guess it depends on how much you are making. For 300k, I'll work 75 hours a week and not burn out. The incentive is there. If you con me into working 75 hours a week for 70k, I'll burn out when I realize I've been wasting my time propping up a loser. I'd imagine most people are the same. Pay them enough, and they will cope with terrible conditions. Con them, and they will lose interest a lot faster.

[deleted]

Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#168

Post by gte910h »

liljimmytables wrote: post #22
gte910h wrote: post #4

Routine long hours are sign of a broken process. Rare spats of long hours due to abnormal events is not an issue

Or even due to awesome coding. I would hate to miss out on my occasional bouts of can't-drag-me-away-from-the-keyboard inspiration simply because someone "fixed" my work ethic and shut the office at 5pm. But yeah, I appreciate the sentiment that no-one should be allowed to pillage their workers' evenings and weekends simply because they don't want to tell their boss "I promised something I couldn't deliver."

One thing I would like to do: Lock people out of email account s/phone numbers/skype during a vacation :OD

I DO think that's a valid separation.

Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#169

Post by dan_manges »

rhizome wrote: post #165
dan_manges wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a dev team of 12 working with an open floor plan, pair programming. We get a lot done. There is no single right way to operate.

"We get a lot done," is pretty meaningless without context. Do you know that the dev team likes it that way?

Yes, everybody prefers it to working in isolation

Re: "Any time you have worked long hours, it is a sign of a broken process."

#170

Post by rhizome »

dan_manges wrote: post #169
rhizome wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We get a lot done," is pretty meaningless without context. Do you know that the dev team likes it that way?

Yes, everybody prefers it to working in isolation

"Isolation" would seem to be a harsh alternative choice.
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