BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries • Hacker News Board

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#161

Post by panick21 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

adfrhgeaq5hy wrote: post #50

anonymousiam wrote: post #17

Tesla said that they will use LFP batteries from now on in all "standard range" cars. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... As I understand it, the "standard range" cars are no different from the long range cars, other than a software flag that allows a greater battery discharge. So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those. https://ww…

The battery swap stations were a scam to get subsidies. They aren't any more real than the Cybertruck, Model 2, Roadster, solar roofs, semi, or Full Self Driving.

All Model S did support that capability early on. Because of reports about Tesla on fire Tesla added a shield under the car that made hot swapping no longer possible.

The reality is, as a company they had X amount of capital to solve long distance driving. It was clear pretty quickly that Superchargers was far better and more scalable technology. When they started with Model S they were not yet sure what the better strategy was.

Model 2 is literally a name something that fans made up. Tesla is internally working on a cheaper car then Model 3 (obously) but they have not talked about it more then 'we are working on it')

Solar roofs are deployed literally every week. By what measure are the 'not real'?

The other products are clearly in the pipeline, calling the a scam is dumb. Lots of car companies have announced products that will not be actually build for a few years. What the big deal? Products get delayed all the time in automotive.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#162

Post by panick21 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

drannex wrote: post #62

leesec wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol you people always come out of the wood work. They are supply constrained, they are not lying about their product line. FSD being the only maybe but I genuinely think they think they can make it work.

It has been 700 days since Tesla & Co debuted the Cybertruck and took pre-orders, with no new tangible updates. It has been 1,435 days since Tesla & Co took pre-orders charging a $50,000 deposit to pre-order the roadster. It has been 1,435 days since Tesla & Co announced the Tesla Semi, with no new tangible updates since 2017. They have legally filed that their system is, and will be for the long foreseeable future,…

You can get all that money back if you do no longer want to wait for the product. What's your issue?

> with no new tangible updates since 2017.

They have just installed Megacharger in Nevada. New Test Semi were spotted a couple of time. They are hiring people for the Semi part of the company pretty constantly.

> with no new tangible updates.

Other then building a gigantic factory dedicated for building the car.

> to unknowing consumers.

I assume you mean consumers who are unable to read.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#163

Post by panick21 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

cma wrote: post #91

pmorici wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those." They aren't planning do battery swapping. None of their recent designs have any provisions for it. That was something they considered early on and then abandon once they advanced their fast charging technology.

They took a half billion in subsidies from California for battery swapping and never planned on actually implementing it broadly IMO. They just met the letter of the rules to qualify, then move HQ to Texas after subsidies run dry and they don't want as much taxation as normal CA small businesses who subsidized them.

They still have a gigantic factory in California, they built a battery factory there and have a huge battery research team in California, they have another research team in San Diago and they just announced building a Megapack production factory in California.

Jesus why are Califonians so thin skinned.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#164

Post by panick21 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

clouddrover wrote: post #131

gremloni wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery swap stations are never going to happen. They make up too much of the cost of the vehicle. Maybe in government public transport fleets or something.

Battery swap stations have happened. NIO has done over 4 million battery swaps: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/nio-customers-have-perform... NIO is expanding their battery swap stations to Europe: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/10/nio-brings-battery-swappin... Gogoro has done over 200 million battery swaps: https://www.gogoro.com/news/400k-gogoro-network-subscribers/ Gogoro is expanding their battery swap network:…

How many % of overall EV are refueled by battery swapping? That is actually a better indicator then saying X company has performed X swaps. Its probably like 0.0001%.

Compare the amount of swap station to the amount of fast chargers.

Battery swap is niche of niche of a niche for cars.

Gogoro is for scooters, I think its pretty clear we were talking about cars.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#165

Post by panick21 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

RNCTX wrote: post #74

mountainriver wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because Elon is genuinely trying to solve our energy problem, although people love to hate on him

Because he's not, he's just trading energy credits.

The whole point of energy credits is that slow moving large companies who use bad old technology give money to fast moving young technology who use modern green technologies.

That is exactly what has happened and was a success as a business was created that no longer relies on credits and it has clearly accelerated the advent of EVs.

Not sure what your issue is with that.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#166

Post by cma » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

panick21 wrote: post #163

cma wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They took a half billion in subsidies from California for battery swapping and never planned on actually implementing it broadly IMO. They just met the letter of the rules to qualify, then move HQ to Texas after subsidies run dry and they don't want as much taxation as normal CA small businesses who subsidized them.

They still have a gigantic factory in California, they built a battery factory there and have a huge battery research team in California, they have another research team in San Diago and they just announced building a Megapack production factory in California. Jesus why are Califonians so thin skinned.

I'm not Californian.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#167

Post by sudosysgen » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #156

sudosysgen wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the real danger from cells that have been deep discharged is dendritic growth as we both know. Yes dendrites could develop later on. But the process of dendritic growth is quite slow and gradual. Because of that, before the cells start getting too hot and threaten thermal runaway, what will happen is that the pack will run out of balance faster than the 40mA my BMS can balance. And shortly after my BMS will trip p…

Interesting information. Agreed that in an unbalanced pack deep discharge is really dangerous, but, and this is where that copper in solution comes back to bite: the bulk of the fires happen during charging, which is when the copper comes out of solution, I'm not quite sure what 'modern' means in this context but all of the batteries that I've seen so far (Samsung, LG, Sony) caution in their MSDS against deep dischar…

I've been using a rear carrier battery too on my bike. It's pretty bad for the center of gravity. I will be building a middle mount for it in the next month. I will caution against it for a heavy pack - it does become a safety issue when the battery is heavy. What happened to me twice is that in suboptimal conditions - rain or dirty roads - it's VERY easy for the front wheel to lock up under braking and for you to lowside. If possible a split between the frame and a rear rack is definitely preferable.

>I'm not quite sure what 'modern' means in this context but all of the batteries that I've seen so far (Samsung, LG, Sony) caution in their MSDS against deep discharge both from a functional risk as well as from a safety perspective and there are a number of pretty knowledgeable people online who are on the record with their reputations at stake cautioning against this

Basically by modern they mean higher capacity than the ones in the 2006 study that found dendrites at 0V - those were early 2000s era tech, shoddy 760mAh cells. They found that the higher the specific capacity, the higher the resistance to Cu becoming dissolved.

As far as constructor experience I do agree with you, it's preferable to avoid it. Though one factor is that people with extensive commercial experience will probably have had to work for very cheap, low capacity 1600mAh cells that are definitely more prone to this, and quite old arrays. I definitely recommend against it too, it just seems to me that it won't result in a fire anymore. I wouldn't take the risk though with a cell I know was discharged to 0 or beyond.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#168

Post by sudosysgen » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #158

jacquesm wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for thinking along, all your points are valid and have been considered, there are fairly obvious drawbacks to doing it this way but simpler options are - alas - not on the table. This is the bike (image ripped from an ad, not that bike but the exact same model): http://imgs.advertentiex.nl/upload/Te-koop-prachtige-christi... So you can see that in the back there are no options other than to either completel…

If it comes down to cutting/modding the frame, I guess it is time to start looking at other options. The one thing I've noticed is that the gearing seems unnecessary while using the motor. With pedal assist, starting from a dead stop is quite simple. I'm sure that there necessity will be obvious if I ever find myself without power in the battery, so I'm guessing removing the gearing is a non-starter

I have used a bike with single gears and I currently run my own ebike with a single gear - it's really not that bad if you are in shape. I have pretty strong legs though so ymmv.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#169

Post by clouddrover » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

panick21 wrote: post #164

clouddrover wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery swap stations have happened. NIO has done over 4 million battery swaps: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/nio-customers-have-perform... NIO is expanding their battery swap stations to Europe: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/10/nio-brings-battery-swappin... Gogoro has done over 200 million battery swaps: https://www.gogoro.com/news/400k-gogoro-network-subscribers/ Gogoro is expanding their battery swap network:…

How many % of overall EV are refueled by battery swapping? That is actually a better indicator then saying X company has performed X swaps. Its probably like 0.0001%. Compare the amount of swap station to the amount of fast chargers. Battery swap is niche of niche of a niche for cars. Gogoro is for scooters, I think its pretty clear we were talking about cars.

So it started as "battery swap stations will never happen" but now it's having a whinge that they're not more widely used, and you're not even the person I was replying to.

Still, this kind of back-pedaling and goalpost shifting is entertaining.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#170

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #158

jacquesm wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for thinking along, all your points are valid and have been considered, there are fairly obvious drawbacks to doing it this way but simpler options are - alas - not on the table. This is the bike (image ripped from an ad, not that bike but the exact same model): http://imgs.advertentiex.nl/upload/Te-koop-prachtige-christi... So you can see that in the back there are no options other than to either completel…

If it comes down to cutting/modding the frame, I guess it is time to start looking at other options. The one thing I've noticed is that the gearing seems unnecessary while using the motor. With pedal assist, starting from a dead stop is quite simple. I'm sure that there necessity will be obvious if I ever find myself without power in the battery, so I'm guessing removing the gearing is a non-starter

One of the people using this bike has a knee injury so gearing is an absolute must and that is the same reason why we are looking to convert the bike to electric drive in the first place.