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Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

esghound.substack.com

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Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#161
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. This is poorly written, random snark. It seems sort of plausible but it’s like looking at a pile of Lego and thinking “Yeah, maybe you could make a Millennium Falcon from this I think?”

ESGHound is the source that broke this story[1] about SpaceX that was featured on TechCrunch last week, and this submission stems from that investigation. You might not like their style of writing, but it would be foolish to dismiss it because it offends your taste. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/08/the-mystery-of-elon-musks-...

His arguments don't make sense. This environmental study is being performed so that SpaceX can make five orbital launches per year from Boca Chica, but ESG Hound's numbers would be for more than ten per week. I've pointed this out to him and he responded with personal insults.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#162
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The process IS already mastered, depending on the bar you set? This isn’t something unknown or theoretical.

Yes, but you still need to design, assemble and test the particular equipment you want to use, unless you can do with off-the-shelf components. And contemporary off-the-shelf components that perform the Sabatier process aren't probably meant to operate outside the Earth.

"you still need to design, assemble and test"

Not if NASA did that decades ago.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I am. Contextually Texas has a huge methane problem[1] and there is every indication that SpaceX will run their facility in a responsible way. What people "get" for SpaceX running that activity is a space capability that is superior to every other nation on the planet. I do understand being emotional about the environment and a desire to preserve it in the presence of people and the activities that we have to do…

I think we're stretching the meaning of 'surprised' past the breaking point, but I get your point. Tangentially: > What people "get" for SpaceX running that activity is a space capability that is superior to every other nation on the planet. The US already has had that for 50 years, and SpaceX is nowhere near the pinnacle of space capability. NASA has a helicopter flying around Mars, will soon have a new telescope ou…

> The US public doesn't own that capability like they do for NASA, any more than they own the new Ford truck line.

They do, because ITAR means that SpaceX can't ship that capability overseas without the US governments approval, but ford can ship their truck line overseas (and has in fact been known to do so).

They aren't directly entitled to control it (beyond their ability to pass new laws that effect it, like taxes if they want to capture the profit, or laws forbidding SpaceX sell services to foreign entities they dislike, or so on), but the capability is very much tied down to the nation.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#164
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but you still need to design, assemble and test the particular equipment you want to use, unless you can do with off-the-shelf components. And contemporary off-the-shelf components that perform the Sabatier process aren't probably meant to operate outside the Earth.

"you still need to design, assemble and test" Not if NASA did that decades ago.

I certainly hope that there are technological improvements that we can take advantage of that have occurred in the past decades (in manufacturing, modeling of pressure vessels and chemical processes, etc).

Mass to mars is incredibly expensive, it's worth spending the time and money to optimize whatever equipment you are sending there.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you are getting downvoted but the GP comment had a very specific request, link to the data source. You've no doubt got those links somewhere right? Adding a post of links to all the public filings would be a real asset here.

Would it be helpful to maybe discuss which step of the discussion that people are getting tripped up on? The core of this particular argument is the following: > Think about it like this. We have 3 variables: > 1. Inlet Gas Flow rate (measured by mmscf/d but easily convertible to pounds methane equiv.) > 2. The VOC content mass % of the inlet stream > 3. The Loss Rate through leaks in valves, fittings, etc. This is t…

What it ignores is that to perform the maximum number of launches permitted under this new license will consume around 1% of the methane this would produce. This equipment will be be used, at most, a few hours every month, but he's producing numbers under the assumption that it would be running 24/7.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I am. Contextually Texas has a huge methane problem[1] and there is every indication that SpaceX will run their facility in a responsible way. What people "get" for SpaceX running that activity is a space capability that is superior to every other nation on the planet. I do understand being emotional about the environment and a desire to preserve it in the presence of people and the activities that we have to do…

I think we're stretching the meaning of 'surprised' past the breaking point, but I get your point. Tangentially: > What people "get" for SpaceX running that activity is a space capability that is superior to every other nation on the planet. The US already has had that for 50 years, and SpaceX is nowhere near the pinnacle of space capability. NASA has a helicopter flying around Mars, will soon have a new telescope ou…

I understand it is specifically about _space launch_ capability. No other state can launch as efficiently as spaceX. And private citizens get tangible benefits from it, such as internet in remote areas

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#167
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is. You need water to your east (because you can't fly over people for safety reasons), for a really long way. As in launches from texas have to dodge Florida, Cuba and all the other islands over there. You need very low population density (because rocket launches and landings require large exclusion zones). You need to be in the US, because of export restrictions. You want to be as far south as p…

Thank you! Now I'm thinking of course ... Puerto Rico? I don't know how much fresh water there is, or if there's available and suitable land on the east coast. Are Georgia or South Carolina too far north?

The Puerto Rico Ports Authority is actually currently evaluating proposals received in response to an RFI for developing a spaceport in the site of the old Roosevelt Roads US Naval Air Base in Ceiba, on the eastern tip of the island.

https://newsismybusiness.com/11-firms-interested-in-developi...

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#168

What I can’t seem to find the answer to in this very long and stream-of-consciousness style series of posts is why the author thinks the FAA is the only relevant federal agency. They complain constantly about violating NEPA and accuse the FAA of just waiving this through … but there’s no way someone can operate a point-source emitter (e.g., large 250mw power station, let alone the natural gas processing facility) wit…

Having read the whole blog post series I agree.

I can't figure out what the issue actually is meant to be here: the strongest argument is that the emissions SpaceX will have from the Starbase site itself will be higher then are being reported because the assumptions about the facility they're building are not accurate.

This might be significant, although it's certainly an argument I have a hard time worrying about in Texas, for this one facility, unless it would actually have a deleterious local impact (or be unmitigateable) - but it is a reasonable point of concern and a good use of public comment - though as noted in the series, the NEPA process is more about documentation then prevention. SpaceX can it seems, just update the numbers now and say "yeah so anyway it'll be that".

Where I'm much less clear is the argument about the gas wells or the gas pipeline - which are presented separately but seem to be necessarily together in order to link them as an issue associated with the Starbase site's operations itself, and I'm really not able to connect the dots here: it's implicitly obvious that Starbase is going to use some quantity of hydrocarbons to operate, but I'm not clear - once the site itself is accounted for - why its a problem that the pipeline and wells they'll necessarily build not being initially included matter?

Is the NEPA process somehow going to grant approval to construct fracking wells that will not be on the Starbase site, or approval for the pipeline construction? The pipeline argument in particular seems to be the weakest because if the existing decommissioned pipeline (who's run length I imagine SpaceX intend to use) was denied, based on the map coloring as presented in the post there's very obviously another path which doesn't cross any shaded regions...through which another pipeline already runs. If it does that seems like a problem, but I'm having a tough time figuring out how the FAA approving rocket launches would in any jurisidiction translate automatically into "and so we also are totally approved for this subsidiary company's fracked natural gas well many miles away and a pipeline".

There seems to be a weird implicit assumption that the FAA approving what it has would somehow approve it with every other agency - which, can it? Does it? As things stand "we're going to build a 250MW gas power plant" maybe shouldn't happen on the site seems to be my takeaway, but since they haven't built it yet and since it's existence doesn't seem to of major impact beyond land-clearing and emissions, surely whether it could be built is one question compared to whether SpaceX can get approval to do everything else they'd need to run it? At the moment they've launched zero rockets, but it seems like they'll be able to launch some without any of this and everything else is a question for the future - and surely the point of other regulatory processes particularly if it's not happening on the site itself?

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#169
post #105

I like how we are hiking the fuel prices for the peasants to reduce CO2 emmissions while we give free passes to billionaires to extract and burn fossils for tourism purposes.

> burn fossils for tourism purposes Like airplanes? Like cruise ships? Would it somehow be better if SpaceX just bought natural gas on the open market, reducing available supply and thereby potentially increasing price through market forces? Are you suggesting we tax carbon so SpaceX has to pay tax on the fuel they extract that could go towards clean energy investments? I'm not sure of the point you're making.

> Like airplanes? Like cruise ships?

1 space x launch for wealthy tourists emits the same CO2 as around 500 transatlantic flights that can haul 10’s of thousands of people between continents.

Yet this forum is fast to propose solutions to make long haul flights unaffordable, in order to curb the emissions, but somehow when Elon Musk is involved, the calculation changes completely and it is fine to needlessly emit co2 the moment that climate catastrophe has reached our doorsteps.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#170
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be helpful to maybe discuss which step of the discussion that people are getting tripped up on? The core of this particular argument is the following: > Think about it like this. We have 3 variables: > 1. Inlet Gas Flow rate (measured by mmscf/d but easily convertible to pounds methane equiv.) > 2. The VOC content mass % of the inlet stream > 3. The Loss Rate through leaks in valves, fittings, etc. This is t…

What it ignores is that to perform the maximum number of launches permitted under this new license will consume around 1% of the methane this would produce. This equipment will be be used, at most, a few hours every month, but he's producing numbers under the assumption that it would be running 24/7.

You seem confused. This topic is about the pretreatment plant, not the power-plant.

You don't build a pretreatment plant if you're only using a fraction of its capacity. You'd instead just ship in pre-treated methane by pipeline or by truck.

But that's not what SpaceX is asking for. SpaceX is asking for their own, private, pretreatment plant. For... some reason. (The underlying theory is: SpaceX seems to be trying to mine their own natural gas)

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EDIT: And if the power plant was expected to be operating at only a minor fraction of the year, you'd expect something in the PEA to note that fact.

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