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The Plague of the Poor

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Re: The Plague of the Poor

#161

Post by cymian »

lebuffon wrote: post #37
travisparker wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That “1-2%” is FAR too high of an estimate. Although regional numbers vary of course, in my state the death rate by county has averaged between 0.0004 and 0.0032 percent. Or, in decimal notation, 0.000004-0.000032 These numbers were calculated based on the Covid data repository maintained by the New York Times ( https://github.com/nytimes/covid-19-data ) and US Census data ( http://www.census.gov/ ).

This whole area might fall into the Sam Clemens quote: "There are lies, damned lies and statistics" Since 30 to 40 percent of humans experience no illness with this thing the denominator can be quite different depending on what you use for it. Notwithstanding that... John's Hopkins Website https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/bda759474... USA Total Cases Total Deaths 44,318,179 712,975 1.6% This is with…

CFR (Case Fatality Rate) is very different than IFR (Infection fatality Rate). Many many more people have been infected but only the more severe cases tend to end up and be counted in the hospitals.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#162

Post by rkk3 »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #151
rkk3 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a prominent example of the left politicizing the vaccine... "If Trump tells us to take it [The Vaccine], I won't" - Kamala Harris https://www.cbsnews.com/video/2020-vp-debate-kamala-harris-o...

If you're going to say "the left" does this, you should be able to do better than a singular example from over year ago.

I said "the left" because they were disagreeing with both sides politicizing vaccines.

A year ago there was widespread fear-mongering about the vaccine being unsafe because it was produced under the trump administration, that quote was representative.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#163

Post by xkbarkar »

ineptech wrote: post #105
protomyth wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both sides are to blame. I stand by my statement. Any politics directed at vaccines is foolish and unscientific. People should acknowledge that mistakes were made by the government and officials with their foolish statements. CNN and Fox are equal partners in the hysteria. People need to remember the goal is to eliminate the threat, not get everyone vaccinated. These are two different things. Ignoring post-COVID immu…

> People need to remember the goal is to eliminate the threat, not get everyone vaccinated. For you perhaps, but some people have the terminal goal of avoiding vaccination, even if that increases the threat. That is why the government is doing anything and everything, including FUD, to push vaccines down peoples' throats. Their actions will always seem irrational if you ignore that.

0 logic in mandating vaccines as vaccinated still spread the virus. So no benefit for anyone else than the wearer( if you will ) and mandating injections serves no purpose of protecting others. The seatbelt actually does protect others. An unbuckled backseat passangers will smash a frontseat one in a collision. The covid-19 shots do not protect other though. Comparing seatbelts wearing to covid-19 vaccine is incredibly innacurate.

Vaccine mandates are now down the path of forbidding us to choose what we do with our own bodies.

This is a very, very dangerous path.

Punishing nurses that have aquired immunity via natural infection will hopefully be considered criminal in a not too far away future. Fortunately there are very few places in the world that thinks that doing so is a good idea.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#164

Post by rkk3 »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #154
rkk3 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nor did Kamala Harris throw doubt on an existing and proven vaccine They did exist, were 6+ months and several stages into trials & were given temporary authorization only 2 months latter. She fomented fear & distrust about the safety of vaccines to score talking points in a debate. Not sure why you think she should get a free pass.

You are completely lying. The vaccines weren't approved yet, end of story. Trump admitted in interviews with Bob Woodward that he was lying about the pandemic. What more proof do you need for him to be completely untrustworthy on the topic?

> You are completely lying

About what?

> The vaccines weren't approved yet, end of story.

They weren't fully approved until about 6 weeks ago. They had gone through several massive trials and government approvals when she implied the vaccines were unsafe a year ago on national television.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#165

Post by protomyth »

ineptech wrote: post #127
protomyth wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can at the point they deviate from the science and truth of the situation. When you concede truth, then you have no basis to implement a public policy. Emotion has no place in a fight against a disease and feeding the emotional argument of anti-vaxers with actual talking points is counterproductive. Fear of abuse is a poor argument because both solutions will be abused (fake vaccine cards are already a thing).

This sounds like a florid way of saying, "I saw a pro-vax lefty lie about something on TV the other day." Okay, feel free to ignore that one guy, but to argue against the vaccine mandate position generally you have to engage with the strongest arguments for it, not the weakest.

Ok, once again, I am arguing against mandating vaccines for people who already had COVID. The science and studies say they already have a better immunity than the vaccine. This lack of science is troubling. That is not an anti-vax position. Its a vax if you haven't had COVID and don't if you have. This is the same exact advice when talking about other diseases like measles.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#166

Post by protomyth »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #133
protomyth wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is advocating for people to get infected, but many front line workers have already had COVID while they were doing their hero work. Since studies are now showing they have better immunity than those who have received a vaccination, it is foolish to have them vaccinate. If you've had Measles, you aren't required to get a vaccination, so there is a well established precedent. The politicalization of the vaccine…

The vaccine increases immunity even for people who have already been infected. It makes total sense to have them get vaccinated. The goal isn't to have everyone reach a specific level of immunity. It's to get the highest possible level of immunity that is possible without taking on additional risks.

The vaccine increases immunity even for people who have already been infected. It makes total sense to have them get vaccinated.

Any risk is stupid if you already have better immunity than taking the vaccine. Once again, other diseases are handled exactly like this. Vaccine if you haven't had it, and no vaccine if you have. Doctors recognize that adding risk is a bad idea.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#167

Post by dantheman »

ineptech wrote: post #76
protomyth wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is advocating for people to get infected, but many front line workers have already had COVID while they were doing their hero work. Since studies are now showing they have better immunity than those who have received a vaccination, it is foolish to have them vaccinate. If you've had Measles, you aren't required to get a vaccination, so there is a well established precedent. The politicalization of the vaccine…

> The politicalization of the vaccine is foolish and unscientific. I think you're confusing cause and effect here. The politicization of the vaccine is the reason the government is now pushing vaccine mandates and such, not a reaction to it. If Fox News had spent the last year telling its viewers that seat belts make you sterile, the government would be raising fines and ramping up enforcement and generally adopting…

There are a lot of non fox news watchers that aren't getting the vaccine.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#168

Post by protomyth »

rkk3 wrote: post #137
raphlinus wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a point I'll concede to the skeptics. By my interpretation, our health system is dysfunctional to the point that it can't reliably and practically collect immunity information in a way that's useful to the immunization effort. I have no interest in defending that. However, given the dysfunction in our system, and given that hybrid immunity seems much better than either vaccine-induced or disease induced[1], t…

> By my interpretation, our health system is dysfunctional to the point that it can't reliably and practically collect immunity information in a way that's useful to the immunization effort. Wouldn't this apply to getting a vaccine, what makes tracking a diagnostic test so much more difficult? People could just have a photo of their positive test, just like they have a photo of their vaccine card...

Considering fake vaccine cards are already making the rounds, I doubt the positive test is easier to fake.

Looking at my vaccine card, there is nothing special like a ID number or even a signature from a doctor.

The stickers for each shot have the name of the vaccine and a lot #, so that might be the tough part, but the lot numbers are screwy. The first one is a ###A##-#A sequence and the second one is a ###A##A sequence. Not sure if there is a national tracking database on that part. No barcode for easy scanning so it probably isn't checkable.

My Dad's testing cards (The VA was doing a test for every appointment so he got tested three times in two weeks because he was having a non-COVID related issue) had a doctor's signature and the results.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#169

Post by protomyth »

ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #99
p49k wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antibody tests exist. I’m not in any way antivax, but it makes no sense why people who already had COVID should be required to receive a vaccine instead of just proving they have antibodies. This kind of illogical policy gives fuel to antivaxers.

How do you define antivax? Pretty sure you would be defined as an antivaxxer by most people as a result of your opinion that some people don't need to get vaccines

That's a really bad way to define ant-vax since that would encompass a lot of people following accepted practices with the measles vaccine along with some others.

Anti-vaxers hate all vaccines. Most of this thread is about following actual science and practices used for other vaccines. If you've had it, then don't get the vaccine, otherwise get the vaccine.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#170

Post by protomyth »

detaro wrote: post #132
rkk3 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's simply not possible to track "natural immunity" in a suitable way to protect the public. Why? Germany and many other countries don't differentiate between forms of immunity. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-require-proof-c...

I think large parts of the faction shouting about how unfair it is to expect people with previous infection to be vaccinated would also shout about the German policy of requiring a booster shot 6 months after the infection, at least that's my impression from how they argue here on HN.

So far, in the US, last I heard Pfizer requires a booster. We haven't been notified about Moderna but they might not require it. I assume that the initial studies on immunity are still tracking and will have some recommendation on what people with a previous infection should do. I would hope people follow that guidance.

Note: My last Moderna shot was in Feb, and its been radio silence and we passed the six month mark and are about to pass the eight month mark. I would hope they get done with whatever evaluation they are doing soon.

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