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I'm sorry

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Re: I'm sorry

#162
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://github.com/reactiveui/splat/pull/778

Wow. That’s very brazen to force a PR in like that. The apology made it sound like a small change that didn’t follow protocol. I didn’t realize it got called out as it happened and she pushed it through anyway.

Yeah I cringed when I saw how she kept re-opening the PR the maintainer had closed. No respect.

Re: I'm sorry

#163

holy fuck, does every little mistake need a solemn 4000 word apology these days? that’s already not a world i want to live in, but then even the apology gets shit on and invalidated. people need to take everything much less seriously, especially shit that happens on the internet. this whole thing should have been able to be a new PR with “sorry about the merge before, i screwed up and it won’t happen again” at the en…

When it's 4000 words, they're saying "sorry, not sorry" and expecting to get away with it.

“Sorry you’re upset”

Re: I'm sorry

#164
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but tl;dr? The link you posted is deep into some drama I don't know what it's referring to.

TL;DR; .NET Foundation moved all member projects to be a suborg of .NET Foundation without asking maintainers. For example, I am a maintainer of https://github.com/pythonnet/ . If you follow that link, you will see "Part of .NET Foundation" which is a GitHub Enterprise Organization. AFAIU, They could do that because when joining projects needed to add dnfadmin@github bot, that was supposed to perform some utility tas…

I don't see "Part of .NET Foundation" anywhere on that page.

Re: I'm sorry

#165
post #114

Does anyone have a good summary of what happened here? I'm not really following what the foundation did wrong. Did Microsoft do something underhanded? Did they get caught trying to start the extinguish phase of EEE?

The executive director of the .NET Foundation force merged a PR on a project, instead of following project guidelines. The incident snowballed into other projects discovering they have been moved to the .NET Foundations Github Enterprise account without their knowledge. And even more projects joining the snowball with “we were told the Foundation were just there to help us, not take over project ownership” And now th…

Thanks now the apology and replies make a lot more sense.

Re: I'm sorry

#166

I am not versed in all the details here, but it is clear there is a diverge of expectations between MS and some of the repo owners. This is just part of business. Legal agreements and projects are complicated. Not everything is going to be spelled out. In a good business relationship you acknowledge this and work in good faith to resolve differences when they occur. However, top comments make clear there is a dire ne…

I think more highly of people who are honest about their emotions and express them, instead of pretending that the motivating force behind almost all of our personal behavior isn't "relevant." Emotional ≠ unproductive.

Re: I'm sorry

#167
post #80

That's a lot of words to apologize for something that could be fixed with a force push

They'd also need to transfer the projects themselves from the DNF's GitHub to the public GitHub repositories they were transferred from.

Re: I'm sorry

#168
I don't know anything about the .NET Foundation or much about this particular situation, but I know a little about open source governance.

It appears that Novotny believed she was acting in her capacity as a (long-dormant) maintainer of the project when she merged the PR in question. It was clearly wrong to do so without following the process set down by the other maintainers, and she was right to apologise.

However, as the Executive Director of the Foundation, she also had the power (perhaps indirectly) to force a merge of a patch in any project controlled by the Foundation. All Foundations must reserve this power to themselves (you can't take on legal liability for something you have no control over), but they also must never use it. To do so is the nuclear option, to be invoked only after all trust and goodwill has been irretrievably lost anyway, because it certainly will be once you use it.

When you wear multiple hats and one of those hats is very powerful, it is critically important to make clear when you are doing stuff but not wearing that hat. Sometimes even that doesn't help, and it's better to just refrain from doing that stuff until you have handed the hat on to someone else.

In this case she failed to make it clear that she was wearing her maintainer hat and not her ED hat. In fact, she accidentally invited speculation that she was wearing the ED hat by referring to the change as a requirement of the Foundation. I'd imagine this is why things blew up.

Note that this probably indicates a problem with the structure of the Foundation. It's more or less inevitable that at the board level these things are pay-for-play, and that the ED's continued employment is at the discretion of the board. But technical decisions should be delegated to a neutral body, preferably elected by the project maintainers. It doesn't sound like that exists, but had it done this situation might have been avoided.

The other issue seems to be a fundamental disconnect between the Foundation and the maintainers of various projects in it about the purpose of the Foundation. For example, I saw one where a maintainer politely declined to give the Foundation access privileges required to enforce the Code of Conduct, instead saying that the maintainers would enforce it themselves. Sorry, but I don't think any foundation could accept that. One of many reasons for joining a foundation is that it gives contributors confidence that there is a CoC backed up by an independent organisation, and that can be enforced even (especially) against powerful members of the community such as project maintainers - potentially even all of a project's maintainers. This is one of many ways that Foundations help build contributor confidence, which is one of the major benefits for a project of joining a foundation, and all of them rest on the credibility of the foundation to act as a circuit breaker and assert some kind of control should dire circumstances crop up. To allow individual projects - even historically well-behaved ones - to opt out of that control would be to effectively render those guarantees meaningless, and in fact reduce the foundation to what would be effectively just a giant fraud against contributors.

It appears that many projects signed up without being made aware of this, and that is an absolute disaster for which only the Foundation can be responsible, and again they are right to apologise for failing to communicate it. However, what many people wanted was an apology for having technical measures in place that would allow them to exert control over projects, which the Foundation cannot really apologise for because it would effectively be an apology for existing. Inevitably people who wanted that will see this response as a non-apology apology.

It looks like a long, hard road back from here to rebuild trust. I'd suggest that the board needs to work collaboratively with the community to clearly document the rights and responsibilities of both the Foundation and the individual projects, that they consider establishing an independent governance body for technical oversight, and that any project that feels this isn't what they signed up for be given the opportunity to leave on good terms.

Re: I'm sorry

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why there would be confusion about what she's apologizing for. She explicitly stated what the mistake was. > I shouldn't have merged this PR without explicit sign-off from the other maintainers, because it's disrespectful and rude not to follow the project’s process.

But when that is followed by an explanation outlining why they’re allowed to do what they did, and going forward they’ll try to make that more clear, how is one supposed to interpret the original apology and its intent? The apology and the legal overview do not coexist well.

Aren’t people conflating two different things? Merging a PR when repeatedly asked not to until it got approved, and Microsoft moving repos?

Merging the PR is a personal failure for which she explicitly apologized for.

Microsoft moving repos is something that the organization has always said was possible. There’s not much to apologize there for. That has always been explicitly stated the rules.

Re: I'm sorry

#170

I am not versed in all the details here, but it is clear there is a diverge of expectations between MS and some of the repo owners. This is just part of business. Legal agreements and projects are complicated. Not everything is going to be spelled out. In a good business relationship you acknowledge this and work in good faith to resolve differences when they occur. However, top comments make clear there is a dire ne…

I don't see anything wrong with that quote. Can it be expressed more "softly"? Sure. But that person is expressing his opinion and I don't see any problem with that. You could also argue it lays the foundation for further escalation but that's on whoever chooses to engage in it IMO.

There seems to be a more general trend going on, some think themselves or others must be protected from "harshness" (even though I consider the above quote to be only a mild example - see the rest of the internet...). For example Linus Torvalds gets a lot of flak for his opinions on some pieces of code he doesn't like but every time I read those emails, I feel like people are blowing it way out of proportion. I'm sure it's not fun to be on the receiving end but his arguments are typically sound and likes to write a lot to really drive his point home. I'd rather be told I'm working on a dead end than a "nice comforting letter" explaining how my patch can't be accepted _right now_ because of x and y with wording that could be interpreted as "it could be accepted later" just to be friendly even though the code is structurally bad and needs to go back to the drawing board. It would give hope where there is none and I think that is worse than "no your code sucks because of x y and z".

I think in this case here it was ok for disappointment to be expressed.

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