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Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

drive.com.au

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Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#161

Post by njovin »

fdr wrote: post #108
njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

EVs still drive on roads.

So do bicycles which pay no road taxes :)

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#162

Post by jszymborski »

dietr1ch wrote: post #78
jszymborski wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed! We have subsidies for electric vehicles under a certain price, but imo prices just get inflated to "what the market is willing to pay" + "value of the subsidy"

Isn't that intended? That extra revenue should also come with extra pressure to deliver cost-efficient products as new parties may want a share of that sweet subsidy. Initially it may look like the subsidy is just throwing out money, but if the subsidy is kept around for a while it becomes a bounty for future competitors.

That's certainly not how it's marketed, at least. A lot of the communications on it have been "Take advantage of our subsidies and save!".

If this is a business-side incentive versus a consumer-side incentive, I personally would much rather they just give them the money directly based on sales and avoid the dishonesty of making folk feel like, even after "savings", EVs are expensive.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#163

Post by dredmorbius »

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #48

On the topic of Norwegian oil, a fascinating story of an Iraqi who helped them deal with being an oil-producing nation: https://web.archive.org/web/20100123225932/http://www.ft.com... He was an oil expert who met a Norwegian au-pair in London, they got together, married, had a sick kid so they decided to move to Norway, and because he had the whole day before he could take the train from Oslo to her hometown, he deci…

Someone's just submitted that to the HN queue. It's very much worth reading.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#164

Post by darkmarmot »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #114
njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

In Colorado at least it's not that high. $50 plus a small amount (today) that goes up over time to no more than $96 in the 2031-2032 fiscal year. It's CERTAINLY a lot less than you'd be paying in gas tax if you used your car an average amount. Taxes aren't punishment, anyway. Especially "road use taxes", which are, in this case, used to repair the roads you're driving on. [1] https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/11486

Road wear is disproportionately caused by heavy vehicles; one study estimated that "one 18-wheeler is equivalent to the impact of 9,600 cars". The gas tax is primarily a subsidy designed to support the trucking industry.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#165

Post by fighterpilot »

ostenning wrote: post #83
thomasfl wrote: post #14

There's a huge price difference between electric cars and gas fueled cars here in Norway. Gas fueled car buyers have to pay both 25 percent VAT and an additional tax on purchase. Buyers don't have to pay neither of those taxes if they buy an electric car. The singer of the group A-ha, Morten Harket, bought an electrical car in 1989 and refused to pay road tolls and ignored all the subsequent fines. That got a lot of…

Meanwhile in Australia: electric cars are getting taxed more to support the aging oil infrastructure

Where can I read about that?

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#166

Post by bamboozled »

I've not owned a car for many years, always get trains and always try live in places where it's fine to walk or cycle. Inner cities, now in a rural village where I'm close to most amenities.

Recently I went on a road trip my partner (who really wanted to go), the whole time I couldn't stop thinking about how stupid of an activity it was given what we know about our future if we stay on the current trajectory. While driving I was looking around at hundreds of thousands of other people doing the same thing and just got me down.

The idea of hundreds of millions of machines driving around emitting carbon dioxide and other pollutants is just so stupid it's hard to imagine we collectively accepted the idea in the first place.

It's really hard to believe that none of the externalitiez are factored into the absolutely insane cost of climate change.

However, I guess what I really wanted to say by writing this comment is, at least there is some hope :)

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#167

Post by chmod775 »

tkbeili wrote: post #29
thomasfl wrote: post #14

There's a huge price difference between electric cars and gas fueled cars here in Norway. Gas fueled car buyers have to pay both 25 percent VAT and an additional tax on purchase. Buyers don't have to pay neither of those taxes if they buy an electric car. The singer of the group A-ha, Morten Harket, bought an electrical car in 1989 and refused to pay road tolls and ignored all the subsequent fines. That got a lot of…

Very interesting. In Canada, it will take years to recoup the price difference for buying an electric car even with government incentives. 25% VAT + Extra tax seems to work.

What does "years" mean in this context? Considering we're talking about cars and not something that you would replace within a month, recouping the price difference within 4-5 years would still be okay.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#168

Post by cesarb »

anonporridge wrote: post #138
clouddrover wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have equivalent cyberattacks on power stations and EV charging networks.

Of course. But a key difference is that the electric grid seems to be drastically more decentralized than fuel pipelines. Pipelines for liquid or gaseous fuel have a huge upfront cost and maintenance requirements compared to running power lines, so the incentives are to build them as big as possible. Taking down a power station is certainly a viable attack vector, but the damage caused by losing a single station is d…

> Taking down a power station is certainly a viable attack vector, but the damage caused by losing a single station is drastically more manageable than losing a key pipeline that a massive region of the continent needs to feed continuously from to keep civilization running.

It depends on which power station.

For instance, in my country, something like a tenth of the power of the whole country comes from a single place, the Itaipu hydroelectric dam. Most power from it flows through just a few power stations. In 2009, a weather-caused triple fault at one of them left half of the whole country, and the whole neighboring country, without power for a few hours (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Brazil_and_Paraguay_black...).

(Not to mention that the long-distance HVDC power lines used to bring power from distant hydroelectric dams like the Belo Monte dam and the Madeira river dams do also have a "huge upfront cost and maintenance requirements". Given that the power loss is lower at higher voltages, and these dams are so far from the southeast where most power demand is, the incentives are to build them as big as possible.)

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#169

Post by anigbrowl »

njovin wrote: post #97
ostenning wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile in Australia: electric cars are getting taxed more to support the aging oil infrastructure

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

I mean, I think it's OK to charge vehicle owners some kinda usage fee to reflect the cost of congestion, road wear, traffic accidents etc., but it's very poorly implemented as is. An obvious solution seems to be to tax tires which are the dirtiest part of an electric car, need to be replaced moderately regularly but not too often, and which wear down in proportion to the amount and and intensity of use. Offroaders and people who want to do donuts or drive like speed racer will need to replace their tires more often, but taxing tires avoids bureaucratic/administrative overhead.

There are already taxes on tires, but they seem pretty nominal. I think you could hike them substantially (eg to $10 or $20 per tire) without upsetting too many people if you scrapped or reduced some other fee or abolished the necessity for a piece of paperwork.

Edit: as some pointe dout the real wear comes from trucks an dother big commercial vehicles. Tires are already taxed by vehicle weight class, but I'm proposing increasing the fees for that in order to simplify bureaucracy elsewhere.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#170

Post by philg_jr »

_3u10 wrote: post #82
mikewave wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's mostly because of the lack of midmarket cars. I bought a used sub-$20k electrical car a few months ago; it can be done. The market needs pressure to create cars in that price range; right now EVs are mostly luxury cars. Tesla is not the car we should be aiming for; what we need are things in the class of the E-Golf, Kia Niro, FFE, Fiat 500E etc. that are the size of a Corolla and cost 20k CAD or less. Until th…

Yeah, used EVs depreciate quickly. I'm comparing new Tesla Plaids to the C8 Corvette and due to depreciation its looking like the C8 will be much cheaper, and much more fun to drive. The C8 will drop 30k in 5 years according to C6/C7 data, whereas a Plaid will likely drop 70k. If I spend less than $800 a month on fuel the C8 is cheaper. Currently C8s are appreciating their first year, which is really weird. The Model…

Corvette vs Model S is kind of a weird comparison, especially with the weight comparison. One is a coupe and one is a sedan.

Maybe compare the Model S to an M5 or E63?

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