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Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

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Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a dewormer for horses that literally comes in paste form: https://archive.is/k2JUb

It is also used to treat rosacea and other ailments in _humans_. Calling it a dewormer in this context is a lie of omission.

Let me put it to you this way. Everyone knows that salicylic acid (originally derived from willow bark) is a precursor to aspirin that is effective as a pain killer, fever reducer, and anti-inflammatory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid and https://www.ehs.com/2015/07/salicylic-acid-safety-tips-hazar...

But salicylic acid is also used in skin care products like wart remover.

Here's a wart remover product for dogs and horses, which contains salicylic acid as an active ingredient: https://www.chewy.com/creative-science-wartsoff-wart-dog/dp/...

If, the next time you have a fever, you reach for the dog/horse wart remover... I'm gonna call that "dog wart remover" regardless of the fact that it contains an ingredient that is used to treat fevers in _humans_

Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#162
post #109
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that tweet was intended as comedy.

https://twitter.com/Hbomberguy You can just check. It's not typing a name into google is difficult.

The parent comment says "were the people reacting to it actually in on the joke". He's not asking whether the tweet exists, but whether it was ironic.

Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#163
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that there are sides and not a web of gradients is built on caricatures. It's the same kind of thinking that makes people believe the color painted over a state on the news tells you anything about an individual there.

The notion that there are sides and not a web of gradients (in the US) is built on polls. The real mystery I want an answer to is why the country us split 50/50 on almost everything.

We're only split 50/50 on issues, and things are issues because we are split 50/50. If a large majority of people agree on both what to do and how to do it, we just do that.

You don't exactly need a poll for "issues" like should we legalize necrophilia or should we go to war with Australia.

Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#164

Oh hey, cool to see my article here. If anyone has questions or wants further details on anything, I'm happy to stick around this thread for a bit. I've paid altogether too much attention to this saga; glad it's going to some use.

yes, my question is, WHAT should have tipped the journalists off? If this was some elaborate puzzle what were the actual clues? or are they just supposed to dismiss anything that "sounds" unusual. And that goes for both cases, the bounty hunters and the trans one. Your article claims it was "obvious" but you NEVER mention WHY it was obvious

> WHAT should have tipped the journalists off? If this was some elaborate puzzle what were the actual clues? or are they just supposed to dismiss anything that "sounds" unusual.

Their inability to verify the claims. The proper approach to journalism is to neither dismiss nor accept claims, but to investigate them. If the investigation yields a story, you publish the evidence collected; if it's a dead end then nothing gets published. In this case, the journalists clearly never did any actual investigation.

Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#165

It doesn’t take much to convince “professional journalists” of things, as long as the things confirm their priors. I’d cut them some slack, because we’re all bad at that, but their literal job is to check things out.

> I’d cut them some slack, because we’re all bad at that,

It's really not that difficult a skill to build though. The trick is not to get perfect at detecting sarcasm or trolls but to realize that if you're talking about an individual or a minuscule group of people online (like the 57 members of the "bounty hunter ring"), it's almost never worth paying attention to regardless of its trolling status. Best-case they're trolling, worst-case they're a little nuts and talking shit. Even in the worst case, "I found an infinitesimal amount of nutty people on the internet" is not useful information for either a journalist or your personal model of the world.

I'm serious, it's really, really easy not to get taken in by bias-confirming dumb things. In fact, there's a force running counter to your framing, in which the average person has _less_ excuse to be taken in by trolls. Journalists have an economic incentive to jump on a story, while an individual is free to avoid having an opinion until there's enough usable information to shift your priors.

Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, my question is, WHAT should have tipped the journalists off? If this was some elaborate puzzle what were the actual clues? or are they just supposed to dismiss anything that "sounds" unusual. And that goes for both cases, the bounty hunters and the trans one. Your article claims it was "obvious" but you NEVER mention WHY it was obvious

Dismiss anything that sounds unusual outright? No. Apply extra scrutiny to things that sound unusual? Absolutely. If they had even googled /r/txbountyhunters, they would have found a rDrama thread early in the results talking about it. If they had looked through the accounts at all, they would have found indications that they weren't conservative pro-life Christians from Texas. Same with the trans one. A number of th…

The only tangible clue you mentioned that didn't rely on "it sounds absurd" was the fact that it was initially cross posted with r/Drama and I agree with you on that point. If journalists could easily see that, they should have looked into what it was.

If the "joke" is supposed to be similar to what Sacha Baron Cohen does, this isn't enough. Like his Erran Moorad stuff, a reasonable person would look up his claims before sitting in for an interview or "training" with him and asking for 3 year olds to be given guns. In Borat 2, the disguises seemed to be intentionally bad.

Most importantly, at the end of the joke he came out to the world and said it WAS a joke and publicized that it was a joke. What r/Drama is doing is less like a joke and more just ways to basically start a civil war. If they were genuine clowns and cultural critics like Cohen(who is literally a classical clown according to Wisecrack) they would come out and proudly declare it in public.

Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the frustrating thing isn't it, "fake news" became popularized in the last few years and 'professional journalists' who can't even be bothered to fact check anything are really proving it right. Which is a shame since a free unbiased press is healthy for a society.

I'm with you until your last line. An "unbiased" press I think was a pretty unusual and brief development in the mid 20th century. I have no problem with a partisan press that wears its heart on its sleeve and states its objectives in the masthead: I'm perfectly capable of reading critically, and noting what's omitted as much as what's covered, and I'll know which alternative periodical to seek out for the other side…

I'm 100% with your premise. When I first got exposure to the world of blogs, I had to quickly learn the skill of rejecting the parts of a piece that are ill-supported while pulling insight from the well-considered[1] parts. This doesn't just extend to rejecting inferences, but to spot-checking facts: studies are not that hard to skim, and important topics will usually have multiple analyses out there that disagree with each other.

But once I started doing that, I couldn't turn it off for regular media sources. Reading articles critically was a huge shock: there are a LOT of really low-quality articles at (eg) the NYT, cases where they get the most basic of facts wrong, and are trivially fact-checked by clicking through to the study they reference.

However. I don't think the vast majority of people are capable of exiting "pour facts into my brain" mode when reading an article. Your position that we should bite the bullet and stop pretending to be neutral would bolster the epistemology of the few who already think critically, but do horrible damage to that of the masses. Maybe the NYT is the best society can do for honest, mass-market journalism. If that's the case, it seems dangerous to give up what little commitment to rigor and honesty they have. I certainly don't want to live in a world where even more people get their news from Breitbart equivalents.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the only successful examples of opinionated, high-quality journalism are denser and less accessible, from The Economist all the way up to specific blogs. Perhaps because simplified narratives are required to hold the attention of John Q Public, and every simplification is an opportunity for bias.

[1] My favorite example of this was when I followed a chain of links and read an article that I disagreed with much about, but retrieved a very novel insight about how to better achieve social justice, a cause which is important to me. As I got deeper into the article, I started having more and more strong disagreements until at a certain pt I realized the guy was a (self-identified) Christian reactionary monarchist, ie a paleo-paleo-conservative. The second thing I learned that day was the meta-lesson that even someone whose values are incredibly alien to me can teach me something tangential to his values.

Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#168
post #123

It doesn’t take much to convince “professional journalists” of things, as long as the things confirm their priors. I’d cut them some slack, because we’re all bad at that, but their literal job is to check things out.

I'm left here wondering which is true: has journalism as a field regressed, with loss of its original principles, or has it never been good to begin with. The professional journalists feel much less like the sources of information that they should be, and more like definers of "truth".

A lot of ills are laid at social media's door, but I think this is a warranted one. Journalists were/are the beating heart of Twitter's userbase, giving it outsize influence through years of a minuscule userbase (eg there was a non-trivial period where there were more active in-stream users of Google+ than Twitter).

There have always been media personalities, but Twitter has made that the default mode of the industry, and removed editorial safeguards from a dramatic amount of the journalistic conversation.

Less interestingly but probably more saliently, the economics destruction that the internet wrought on journalism has just destroyed the economic buffer that allowed them to build a culture of standards and principles (such as it was). People have always liked being affirmed over being informed, and the journalism market now forces journalists to deliver that.

Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#169
post #127

so what exactly should have tipped off the journalists or commentators? and yes, I mean not just the bounty hunters but also the trans one. If the idea was that this was some elaborate puzzle to solve, what EXACTLY was the solution and how should they have come to it? This is not a cleaver joke, the people supporting this aren't Sacha Baron Cohen. In Borat, there were many things that would tip people off beyond just…

The fundamental rule imo should be that the more absurd the claim, the more it deserves a double check. That hospitals are prioritising gunshots below ivermectin is absurd to what I hope is most people.

The fundamental rule is to double check everything. Otherwise you end up letting false stories through that confirm your preexisting biases, since they don't sound "absurd" to you.

If your mother says she loves you, check it out.

Re: Trolls convinced journalists they were “abortion bounty hunters”

#170
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that there are sides and not a web of gradients is built on caricatures. It's the same kind of thinking that makes people believe the color painted over a state on the news tells you anything about an individual there.

The notion that there are sides and not a web of gradients (in the US) is built on polls. The real mystery I want an answer to is why the country us split 50/50 on almost everything.

> The real mystery I want an answer to is why the country us split 50/50 on almost everything.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

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