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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#161

Post by davmar »

quotemstr wrote: post #153
ZetaZero wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic? SCOTUS ruled that mandatory vaccines are constitutional back in 1905. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

The rationale in that case doesn't apply here: the COVID vaccines don't stop the spread of the virus. Because COVID vaccines can't actually stop the spread of the disease under any plausible level of vaccination (the R0 of the virus is too high), vaccines can serve only to safeguard the health of individuals, and we generally don't use heavy-handed nation-wide mandates to force people to do things that are merely goo…

Wow, you are very wrong on every point.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#162

Post by quotemstr »

davmar wrote: post #161
quotemstr wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rationale in that case doesn't apply here: the COVID vaccines don't stop the spread of the virus. Because COVID vaccines can't actually stop the spread of the disease under any plausible level of vaccination (the R0 of the virus is too high), vaccines can serve only to safeguard the health of individuals, and we generally don't use heavy-handed nation-wide mandates to force people to do things that are merely goo…

Wow, you are very wrong on every point.

> Wow, you are very wrong on every point.

Maybe so, but you've offered nothing that would convince me or anything else that I'm wrong. "Wow, just wow" is not an argument.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#163

Post by davmar »

quotemstr wrote: post #162
davmar wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you are very wrong on every point.

> Wow, you are very wrong on every point. Maybe so, but you've offered nothing that would convince me or anything else that I'm wrong. "Wow, just wow" is not an argument.

I didn't bother since you didn't provide any arguments either.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#164

Post by angelzen »

pwinnski wrote: post #156
cbdumas wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> covid vaccines do not prevent infection This is untrue, see this site and the studies in the footnotes: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var... TL;DR: Vaccines are effective, though not perfect, at preventing infection with the delta variant

TL;DR: You are correct! The counter-story seems to be based on radically misreading data out of Israel, which seems to show higher infection rates among the vaccinated, a reading which fails to take into account the incredibly high rate of vaccination there. So yeah, there are more infections among the 78% vaccinated than among the 22% unvaccinated. Given that there are 3.5x as many people in the first group, that's…

CDC says vaccines are only 66 percent effective at preventing Delta infection. As far as I can understand, this means 34% of vaccinated people develop a covid infection. I'm having a hard time squaring this with 'vaccines prevent infection' thesis. Perhaps I'm missing something obvious?

(Yes, I'm aware the fraction is better against severe Delta infection. Yes, I agree 3x reduction is infection rate is a good thing.)

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/2021082...

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#165

Post by fanf2 »

rajin444 wrote: post #49
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

> What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? Somebody who has already had covid. They've already taken on risk - why expose themselves to more? Your argument of people acting rational breaks down in a lot of cases. Plenty of people have self destructive behaviors (many with externalities that affect others) that we are ok with.

If you've had COVID, a vaccine can help with Long COVID symptoms, and it can reduce the risk of reinfection, so it's still better to be vaccinated than to catch COVID a second time.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#166

Post by angelzen »

setum wrote: post #143
angelzen wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are vaccines. Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. People say they are extremely good at eliminate severe covid, that's what I got one myself. But at this point taking a vaccine or not is a personal decision. People are punching themselves in the face all the time, see obesity crisis for example. Should we ban hamburgers & fries next?

yes, if obesity were contagious.

If only vaccines were to prevent covid spread. 'CDC: COVID-19 Vaccines 66% Effective Against Delta Variant'.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/2021082...

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#167

Post by [deleted] »

betterunix2 wrote: post #152
gregwebs wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is reasonable for sterilizing vaccines, and maybe even for this vaccine before the Delta variant. However, this vaccine is non-sterilizing, meaning that it does not stop people from getting infected in the nose but stops progression to the lower respiratory tract thus preventing hospitalization. Before the delta variant the vaccines also worked surprisingly well at reducing infections, but with the Del…

Citation needed? A quick search turns up study after study from one country after another finding that COVID vaccines both reduce the rate of infection and reduce the rate of transmission even with the delta variant. You are right that people are overstating what the vaccine does, and that is where politicians actually have a chance to do something useful. Unfortunately there is a major political party that is doing…

[deleted]

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#168

Post by nradov »

michaelt wrote: post #96
threatofrain wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

You're absolutely right - getting vaccinated protects your family, your community, and your country. What I mean by punching yourself in the face is: Even if you don't have any family and you hate your neighbours, getting vaccinated is still in your own interests, because it stops you dying.

I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but it's unclear what community protection that provides. Vaccinated people can still get infected and spread the virus. They may be contagious for a shorter period on average but the magnitude is still unknown.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

Since the Delta variant is so contagious there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect the unvaccinated. The virus is now endemic and can't be eradicated so all of us can expect to be exposed multiple times throughout our lives.

https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#169

Post by gorwell »

unchocked wrote: post #11

Good. There is no better use of state power than ensuring public health. Supreme Court resolved this in 1905 w/r/t smallpox.

It's not comparable. Smallpox has a radically higher mortality rate, more contagious, worse side effects, and applies to both the young and old.

"The risk of death after contracting the disease was about 30%, with higher rates among babies. Often those who survived had extensive scarring of their skin, and some were left blind."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#170

Post by Daishiman »

rajin444 wrote: post #116
Daishiman wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you support having unvaccinated nurses in hospitals full of people with compromised immune systems? How does that work?

If this is a major concern testing daily is the only option. The covid vaccine's efficacy wanes over time.

The chance of false positives and false negatives is too high for this to be reliable in an environment with immunocompromised patients.
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