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Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

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Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#161

I think it's possible that ivermectin could have positive effect (less hospitalizations) on people with parasites who contracted Covid-19. After-all a lot of people die not from Covid-19 but from complications from it. I think the main issue with it's use is, similar to antibiotic resistance, (note that it's not antibiotic or antiviral) overuse will lessen it's effectiveness when needed the most.

And i think Chtulu is possible. Haven't seen it, can't prove it, but it has go to be true, just because i think it.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like when the CDC first said that masks are ineffective to try to keep people from hoarding them. People are wise to the game now, and expect that the CDC is saying things to influence behavior, rather than because they are true. Nobody trusts a salesman.

> It's like when the CDC first said that masks are ineffective to try to keep people from hoarding them. The way I remember it was more like, the CDC said: - They don't know yet if surgical (and in general, non-N95) masks are effective against COVID-19 spread. They never denied this for N95. - Hospitals are running out of surgical (and N95...) masks, and given the above, people should stop hoarding them. That seemed.…

You cherry picked a video from April after he changed his mind. Here's what he said in March.

"There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t_e7dgI

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#163
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So because Trump talked about the former that somehow makes it political and not scientific? What a weak argument. I think you should re-read the thread. The only person talking about Trump here is you .

Then explain why one was political and the other not? I'll wait.

It’s unclear what you are asking for.

What claim do you think I am making that you want me to explain?

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#164
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, ivermectin is an old drug with a well established safety record ... when using proper human dosing. The COVID vaccines are only just getting their first full approvals. If someone is evaluating the drugs purely on their long term track record of safety, ivermectin wins by a long shot. But none of that really matters, because the problem is about efficacy. It might be "safer" to take ivermectin in a vacuum…

> To be fair, ivermectin is an old drug with a well > established safety record But then why these crazy doctors are saying not to take it? Conspiracy? I guess we not should trust these "doctors"...

For the same reason a doctor would say you shouldn’t take penicillin to treat COVID. People are conflating safety with efficacy.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#165
post #97

This is so interesting to me. Perhaps what is most interesting is that people seem to have an opinion already and are not willing to change that opinion, and worse that the opinions seem to coincide with political leanings (at least in Canada and the US -- no idea about the rest of the world.) The anti-ivermectin side seems to say: we have vaccines. We don't know if this is good enough until large-scale randomize con…

> . https://c19ivermectin.com says that are 113 studies of using 73 peer reviewed studies, and they all tend to show good results.

The problem is that studies that show bad results has a lower chance of been written and a lower chance of been published and a lower chance of been collected in the sites. So there is a lot of informal involuntary filtration, that hides the the bad result and collect only the good results.

Someone posted https://ivmmeta.com/#fig_fpr and https://hcqmeta.com/#fcite_rct . It's nice to be able to compare both.

Take a look at this paper: https://c19ivermectin.com/chowdhury.html

One interesting thing is that it compares Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine. It is listed as a success in the https://ivmmeta.com/#fig_fpr but it's not listed a failure in the https://hcqmeta.com/#fcite_rct site.

If it had the opposite result, would it be listed in ivmmeta or only in hcqmeta? If it has a null result would any of them had shown it? (Assuming that the doctors took the time to write a boring article about a null result, and the journal published a boring article about a null result.)

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason you think it's inherently shitty and incompetent for a doctor to prescribe ivermectin off-label for Covid is because you've bought into the dumb culture war politicization of it. I'm not a Bill Maher fan but he made a good point when he said "ivermectin isn't a registered Republican, it's a drug." Maybe it doesn't actually work (unlike so many on the other side of this issue I am at least willing to g…

> dumb culture war politicization of it Maybe I'm a fan of science, of which there is NO evidence that Ivermectin works against COVID. It seems like maybe you're the one that bought into something. These doctors are doing nothing more than profiting off the fear of their patients, while offering no value other than what might be argued is a placebo. That doesn't stop these people from infecting others around them.

You sound more like a fan of the mainstream narrative than science. The studies on ivermectin are ongoing. By just ignorantly saying "there is no evidence" as meaning that it's been proven to be ineffective, you show how scientifically illiterate you are. No evidence doesn't guarantee something isn't true.

In fact, if you had read the article you would have learned that they haven't ruled out ivermectin and are still researching it along with other treatments. If you want to take ivermectin they want you to be part of the study. This is how science works.

"The NIH is studying the drug in a large trial comparing a half-dozen established drugs to see if they have some effect against COVID-19.

Experts say those interested in ivermectin should ask about enrolling in such studies."

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#167
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative?

Based on current data? I have no idea. It's an absolute mess: https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2021/09/03/i-have-not-been-sil... For a start, we could stop making claims that we don't know to be true. Replace "the vaccine is safe and effective, and if we all get the vaccine the pandemic will be over" with "the vaccine is the best tool we have to prevent serious disease and death".

But people at e.g. RKI are saying the latter. It's the media that is saying otherwise.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like when the CDC first said that masks are ineffective to try to keep people from hoarding them. The way I remember it was more like, the CDC said: - They don't know yet if surgical (and in general, non-N95) masks are effective against COVID-19 spread. They never denied this for N95. - Hospitals are running out of surgical (and N95...) masks, and given the above, people should stop hoarding them. That seemed.…

You cherry picked a video from April after he changed his mind. Here's what he said in March. "There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fi…

First, no, I didn't cherry-pick anything, it was literally the first video I saw when I searched on YouTube. I certainly didn't even recall your video.

Second, if you're going to accuse cherry-picking, look at the very crucial quotes you omitted from your own clip:

- Right before your quote he had added very critical qualifiers that you skipped: He specifically said, "Right now, in the United States, there's no reason to be walking around with a mask." Mind you, this was on March 8, pre-lockdown. He explicitly made it clear this guidance could change as the situation evolves (or, as you wrote, "change his mind" should he get more data or see circumstances change... how horrifying!), and he specifically said in the United States, likely because the epidemic was much less severe than it became in the following weeks (it wasn't even declared a pandemic yet!), so they thought it could be better handled without telling everyone to wear masks. He clearly genuinely believed at the time that the protection they would be likely to provide would be small compared to the benefits of saving them for hospitals.

- Also note that he continued to provide context: "When you think masks, you should think of healthcare providers needing them, and people who are ill." Again, he's explaining his concerns. You can't ignore that.

- Also note that he even specifically explained: "When you look at the films of foreign countries and you see 85% of people wearing masks, that's fine, that's fine. I'm not against it. But that's when it can lead to a shortage of masks for people who need it." i.e.: If he wasn't worried about a shortage, he wouldn't be telling people not to wear masks.

You can't honestly hear all that and accuse him (or me...) of dishonesty with that clip.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#169
post #13

Disclaimer: I am not implying I buy into the theories about ivermectin being an effective treatment for COVID. This feels like another situation where the attempts to quell disinformation are having the opposite of their intended effect. Depending on where these people first learned of this drug, there is some pretty confusing information floating around. When someone like Bret Weinstein points out that ivermectin is…

It's like when the CDC first said that masks are ineffective to try to keep people from hoarding them. People are wise to the game now, and expect that the CDC is saying things to influence behavior, rather than because they are true. Nobody trusts a salesman.

So this is what confuses me. I understand why some people might have started to lose trust in the CDC because they thought they were intentionally lying because they didn't trust people to do the right thing. Or as you say, they start to see the CDC as "salesmen."

But why do they therefore inherently trust the other people saying to take hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and these other solutions? Aren't these people also salesmen?

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#170

I think it's possible that ivermectin could have positive effect (less hospitalizations) on people with parasites who contracted Covid-19. After-all a lot of people die not from Covid-19 but from complications from it. I think the main issue with it's use is, similar to antibiotic resistance, (note that it's not antibiotic or antiviral) overuse will lessen it's effectiveness when needed the most.

And i think Chtulu is possible. Haven't seen it, can't prove it, but it has go to be true, just because i think it.

They said that it's possible and not that is has to be true. A big part of science is ruling things out. Ivermectin hasn't been ruled out yet.
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