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Elm at Rakuten

engineering.rakuten.today

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Re: Elm at Rakuten

#161

Post by leshow »

cardanome wrote: post #29
theobeers wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the opening section of the blog post, I wondered why an incremental move to TypeScript wouldn’t have worked for them. The rest seems to be all about Elm (I haven’t read it thoroughly), but I feel there’s a disconnect between the problem they started with and their choice to dive into a wholly new ecosystem. edit: Ah, hold on; I just got to where they comment on this. “TypeScript, which adds optional static typin…

TypeScript has a slow compiler and horrendous error messages (especially compared to the Elm). Plus it is far away from the no runtime exception guarantees that Elm offers by design. Also TS is just part of a potential solution while Elm comes with all batteries included. You still have to set up your code formater, liner, decide on a framework, state management library and so on and so on. With Elm, you just use elm…

If you use something like nextjs and strict compiler options for TS a lot of these concerns go away.

> You get everything you need out need out of the box.

This is specious. There's lots of comments about how you don't get everything out of the box and for the parts that are missing it's a pain. Perhaps your particular use cases are covered, that's great.

Re: Elm at Rakuten

#162

Post by razze »

gaereth wrote: post #152
G4BB3R wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kernel code and custom operators are only allowed under elm/ and elm-explorations/, so only 7 core packages can use them. The core developers cannot use those features in projects like everyone else.

The thing I found unsettling wasn’t that something was disabled (fair design decission), but the mindset that considers some features harmful , but is happy enough to use it in its own „special case projects/packages”. It doesn’t really matter for how many packages its available, since it can be changed on a whim. I can only speak for myself, but I found it unfair and patronizing

I don't think that's fair. If elm ever wants to replace js it only needs to rewrite the kernel modules, they govern. Otherwise the whole ecosystem would break in that case and yes, that would be a harmful feature.

Re: Elm at Rakuten

#163

Post by razze »

tempest_ wrote: post #3

Elm looks interesting but when it pops up around here and other places it is usually about how the main dev does not work and play well with others. It is a bit off putting. It is nice to see a different perspective.

Having worked with "the main dev" I can't say I share this view. It has been very nice to be able to pick his brain and hear his thoughts. It can be exhausting, when you want to improve things now, but come up with a better long term plan. I guess that's a language designer thing.

Re: Elm at Rakuten

#166

Post by nopcode »

mchusma wrote: post #159

Rakuten is basically a scam on merchants right? By that I means they use affiliate links to make money. But most of their referred traffic comes from people checking out and saying "I use rakuten to get a discount at the places I already shop". The stores then don't know how much business rakuten is really bringing them, so are scared to stop it. Consumers keep checking rakuten to see if they get discounts on things…

Rakuten is a billion dollar company often referred to as the Amazon of Japan.

They have a very different type of presence in different countries.

Re: Elm at Rakuten

#167

Post by Latty »

rtfeldman wrote: post #17
jaeming wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, there was a rift in the community over the leadership's tone in messaging and communication. Some Developers also felt like they could not contribute in a meaningful way or have constructive discussion with maintainers. See posts like these for more details and comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510267 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22821447 There are also several great alterna…

Honestly I think the main reason for this perception is that people in the Elm community have gotten increasingly tired of correcting inaccuracies people like to post about Elm on Hacker News. I spent a bunch of time doing that in the past, and eventually stopped because I felt like Sisyphus. The same people would crop up on the next thread repeating the same things anyway. Of course if the claims go unchallenged, it…

I'm a fan of Elm, and I'm using it in production, but I think this is very much a case of using some flaws in the way people see Elm to ignore some correct criticism of it.

I've tried to push for fixing the use of CSS Custom Properties in Elm a couple of times (https://discourse.elm-lang.org/t/css-custom-properties/5554) and it really felt like talking to a wall.

The community absolutely suffers whenever anyone comes across one of these issues where there just isn't a solution, and more than that, no communication at all. It implies the project is dead.

I accept that Elm is functionally just stalled and won't see any changes until some arbitrary point in the future, I can live with that. I don't think the project communicates it's state and direction well though, and that leads people to disappointment and the posts you see.

Re: Elm at Rakuten

#168

Post by mst »

aranchelk wrote: post #122
mst wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the idea was that you'd have layers of actions so you have a top level handler of some sort that would then dispatch a contained-within-the-primnary-action component-scoped action and then pull the new component data back into the global store. (apologies for the lumpy phrasing, insomnia is a pain)

That may be best practice, I'm not sure. Regardless, you can imagine as a result of that style of coding, any changes to the type of your components state will require at least some changes within the component, changes to one or more of those layers of action handlers, and a change to the initial/default instance of your applications model. I'm absolutely not an authority on Elm architecture, I just know that my exp…

I'm not sure an optimal implementation of the pattern requires onerous changes but it seems like one of those things where even if I'm right about said optimal implementation, learning how to get all the details right such that you get to that state is exceedingly non-trivial and the world seems to be divided into people who've already had the relevant "aha" moments and for whom it's now Just Obvious ... and people like us, who know just enough to blow both feet off ;)

Re: Elm at Rakuten

#169

Post by gaereth »

razze wrote: post #162
gaereth wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I found unsettling wasn’t that something was disabled (fair design decission), but the mindset that considers some features harmful , but is happy enough to use it in its own „special case projects/packages”. It doesn’t really matter for how many packages its available, since it can be changed on a whim. I can only speak for myself, but I found it unfair and patronizing

I don't think that's fair. If elm ever wants to replace js it only needs to rewrite the kernel modules, they govern. Otherwise the whole ecosystem would break in that case and yes, that would be a harmful feature.

I didn’t mean locking features, especially native modules - didn’t write a single one, so personally I won’t miss it. I meant „some repos are more equal then other” mindset. It’s clearer in case of custom operators - they are considered confusing, unless you mean parsing and by parsing you mean elm/json or elm/url, then it’s cool.

By all means, I’m not saying those are crucial features or that they don’t have right to do whatever they want with their language. They can and they do. I just find this kind of atitude and reasoning patronizing.

Re: Elm at Rakuten

#170

Post by 1-more »

razze wrote: post #160
adamwk wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's merely small librarys. Last I checked localization in Elm was a pain, and I'm sure there are numerous other features missing.

Check https://package.elm-lang.org/packages/ChristophP/elm-i18next...

This is rad. TYSM
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