Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#161

Post by danneu » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:45 PM UTC

klenwell wrote: post #75

sequoia wrote: post #50

I'm a parent of two who does NOT plan on putting his kids in public school because I think they won't be served well there (plan on "home schooling"). My 5yo uses Khan Academy and it seems to be great. Finally, I basically hate most aspects of public school. That said, I get sick of everyone piling on public school whenever something like this comes up. Public school is set to the following task: "take everyone , eve…

Well put. Finally, I basically hate most aspects of public school. I was ready to agree with this. But then I reflected. What I really hated were my rotten peers (and, to an extent, my rotten self) from around the start of junior high to the end of high school. They weren't horrible, mind you. Just middle-of-the-distribution-curve kids, with the inevitable psychopath or two. I don't think privatization is going to fi…

I go to the massive UT and my best experience in academics has come from, without fail, local community colleges. I took my Calculus, History, Government, and English courses in class sizes no bigger than 15 kids, got to know my professor/peers through class interaction rather than office hour groveling, and could ask specific questions all day. And I paid $165/class instead of $1,400/class.

When I compare the same course alternative at UT, it's instead taught by TAs, needlessly much harder (how is a class average of 30% on an exam not an institutional failure?), and I spent my time struggling to teach myself on the side rather than feeling like I grasped the concepts in class.

It's unfortunate that our system glorifies the inferior experience through compensation, taboos, and social status.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#162

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:51 PM UTC

gdfsnob wrote: post #155

kenjackson wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "appeals to authority" fallacy applies when I'm citing non-experts (like if I'm citing Chomsky for an economics issue). Or when there's not consensus in the field. You state that CATO is "purely political propaganda" without substantiating that claim with any specifics whatsoever. Why do you keep saying that? The first sentence of my last post makes it clear that this isn't about Cato. I don't care who wrote it.…

Please cite specifically what you're referring to as "political propaganda". Is it the claim that students don't have much of a choice when it comes to public schools? If so, to call that "political propaganda" is absurd. Regarding Seattle, you're citing one data point. The majority of American public schools don't operate with open enrollment. If you're in a public school, you're assigned to one school in a designat…

First, I don't know where you're from, but from Watts to the Walmart in Torrance is a 15 minute drive with no traffic (good luck). And its at LEAST 45 minutes by bus (if the buses are running on time -- good luck). You really need to step out of your house and go to Watts. Then come back and let me know.

Please cite specifically what you're referring to as "political propaganda".

Political propaganda is trying to make political claims with no data or evidence. It's not the specific claim that's relevant so much as the fact that its just a post that says it and nothing else.

It would be like someone posting to HN something that said:

Emacs sucks. Really. It's for dumb programmers who program in languages that no one uses it. If the world didn't have Emacs we'd be better off.

The specific claim here doesn't matter. But I'd be trying to push a specific agenda by using no or deceptive arguments. This Cato post doesn't give any new information. It leads to no new insight. It doesn't present a new perspective. It simply asserts its position.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#163

Post by ohyes » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:58 PM UTC

Symmetry wrote: post #48

ohyes wrote: post #35

How did this article hit the front page? What is insightful or interesting about it? "This attitude is a natural outgrowth of our decision to operate education as a monopoly." This is blatantly not true, in the US we do not operate education as a monopoly. There are plenty of private schools.

Its not a perfect monopoly, but the market dominance of state education is greater than that of Microsoft, or Standard Oil, or any of the other companies we tend to think of as monopolies.

But it isn't a monopoly. There is no single entity controlling all of the public schools. There is no Gates or Rockefeller of education.

Each school is controlled by the state and local government, which is in turn controlled by elected officials. There are federal and government regulations, but aside from that, it is run by the people.

If you don't like what your town or district is doing, get on the school board and change it, or vote for someone who agrees with you. And if you really don't like what the state is doing, offer your own option through private education.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#164

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 8:01 PM UTC

gdfsnob wrote: post #93

thisuser wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is politics. But reactionary free-market worship is too simplistic to be allowed here. Cato only exists because advocating private ownership of profit turns out to be profitable, not because they have any insightful analysis.

I think you might be experiencing the Dunning-Kruger effect. The CATO Institute has 10 Nobel Laureates in Economics associated with it. http://www.cato.org/people/nobel-index.html

[deleted]

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#165

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 8:03 PM UTC

gdfsnob wrote: post #96

bendotc wrote: post #4

Really interesting, shocking quote from the original article, but the Cato free-market spin is questionable and not terribly well suited to Hacker News, IMO. The original Wired piece is great, though.

"Cato free-market spin is questionable and not terribly well suited to Hacker News" As if Hacker News is somehow more qualified on economic issues than Cato, which has 10 Nobel Laureates? F. A. Hayek Milton Friedman James M. Buchanan Robert Mundell Edward C. Prescott Douglass C. North Vernon L. Smith Gary S. Becker Ronald Coase Thomas C. Schelling http://www.cato.org/people/nobel-index.html

[deleted]

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#166

Post by klenwell » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 8:04 PM UTC

danneu wrote: post #161

klenwell wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put. Finally, I basically hate most aspects of public school. I was ready to agree with this. But then I reflected. What I really hated were my rotten peers (and, to an extent, my rotten self) from around the start of junior high to the end of high school. They weren't horrible, mind you. Just middle-of-the-distribution-curve kids, with the inevitable psychopath or two. I don't think privatization is going to fi…

I go to the massive UT and my best experience in academics has come from, without fail, local community colleges. I took my Calculus, History, Government, and English courses in class sizes no bigger than 15 kids, got to know my professor/peers through class interaction rather than office hour groveling, and could ask specific questions all day. And I paid $165/class instead of $1,400/class. When I compare the same c…

I paid $5/unit with $50/semester cap back when I was at JC here in CA. I'm probably a little older.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#167

Post by jshen » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 8:08 PM UTC

pemulis wrote: post #151

jshen wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the kind who insists that buyers in a market are rational in some individual or even collective sense, that they somehow optimize their own happiness or utility function." This is my core point as well, thanks for taking the time to lay out a better case than I did. It's rather shocking once you realize that the human brain is not rational in the way we often think it is. I find this fact to completely destroy most…

Actually, the granddaddy of libertarian economics, F.A. Hayek, spent his whole career arguing that people are irrational (which is to say, they do not all share the same preferences), and that attempts to shape the economy based on a presumption of the existence of rational utility are doomed. Most non-libertarian economic systems are based on the assumptions that, 1. There is such a thing as rational utility, and 2.…

"Most non-libertarian economic systems are based on the assumption ..."

Huh? So you're saying there is only libertarianism or bureaucratly controlled economies? That's wrong on it's face.

Here's my idea of a good economy, markets for most things with good government regulation of health, safety, etc. And, a few public industries like water, power, and healthcare. This system doesn't fit your model at all.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#168

Post by sequoia » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 8:08 PM UTC

niels_olson wrote: post #158

sequoia wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

regarding Kahn Academy: I don't know. My 5 year old is competitive so the game mechanics work well. She's been using pbskids.org for years playing educational games, so it comes very naturally at this point. Also, she likes to learn :p Mostly I think it's her competitive nature.

Who is she competing with?

Everyone/herself. Game mechanics: you earn points, you get badges... she wants to be able to say "look what I did." She likes "winning" and you can "win" in the sense of moving forward thru "levels," getting achievements, etc.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#169

Post by jacoblyles » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 8:08 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #108

jshen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private schools will lead to a marketing driven education system that preys on peoples ignorance. Here's a simple thought experiment. Look at all the education systems around the world, and ask if the ones with the best results are private or public.

Here's a simple thought experiment. Look at all the education systems around the world, and ask if the ones with the best results are private or public. That's not a simple thought experiment, it's a massive data-collecting exercise. I'm not sure if there are any countries with wholly-private education systems, are there? Still, there are many countries (the UK and Australia spring to mind) where private schools play…

The Swedes have universal school choice (public or private). And I believe the Netherlands.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#170

Post by Duff » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 8:12 PM UTC

timsally wrote: post #44

Duff wrote: post #11

The education system is broken and has been for decades. The supporters of the system re-characterize criticism of the system into "attacks" on teachers (ie. union membership) and demand more money. The establishment "won" their side of the argument in many states -- states that richly compensated employees (the payscale in most NY school districts ends at $110k, plus 65% pension for life) and administrators (typical…

$100K+ and $150K+ /w pension are the salaries it takes to attract and retain excellent teachers and school administrators respectively (adjust for locality). These are the going rates at all the top public schools in the nation. With a fully staffed school, it works out to be about $15K per student per year if you include overhead. The results you get are a 99% graduation rate, average standardized testings scores in…

Read my comment. I specifically didn't focus on money. The point is throwing money and bodies at the problems of education has a proven track record of NOT working.

Those results that you refer to apply to a suburban school in high-income area with few challenges. Those students have an edge because they have parents (note the plural) who can fill in the blanks left at school or have the resources to hire someone to do that. That's why the stoner white kids from the suburbs graduate from high school and the middle of the pack urban students get swept out the door.

I live in a small city with low costs (standard of living index is 1.1) where the per-pupil costs are in excess of $23,000/child, the average teacher salary is $85k, median income in the city is $50k, the graduation rate is 42%, and in many elementary schools less than 15% of the 4th graders are in the upper half of state testing results for math.

That NYC multi-modal experiment offers the promise of bridging the gap between urban students without access to supplemental instruction and the suburban kids who have lots of resources available. Kids spend time in large/small classroom settings, Khan-academy type computer applications and "virtual" tutoring. Results are measured and kids get rotated through various modes of learning based on their results.

What does that mean? It means that we can improve education and reduce the inequity in our society without throwing $100k+ teachers into the breach like infantrymen. Being born in a city shouldn't condemn you to a marginal education and future prospects.

It's not a matter of being "against" teachers or whatever -- it's applying their talents strategically in a way that benefits the students. Would you solve an IT or difficult programming problem by throwing more IT guys at it? Or would you break the problem down and figure out the best way to address it?