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Farmers always worked from home

piszek.com

161–170 of 180 posts

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's interesting. What crop and acreage are you working with? I was a part owner of 100 acres of pistachios for 20 years and margins were very thin. Labor, electricity, and periodic capital inputs were the major costs. Labor and management was year round with no off season. I in no way want to invalidate your experience, but don't understand excluding the capital input costs and claiming it is lucrative. How m…

> What crop and acreage are you working with? Corn, soys, wheat, edible beans. Understandably, different types of farms will be different. > Labor and management was year round with no off season. In this northern climate there isn't much you can do in the winter under the blanket of snow, save animal husbandry. And even then I know quite a few farmers with animals who only keep animals through a portion of year exac…

Thanks again for sharing. I wonder what keeps prices up or competitors out if returns are so high and work is so low for those crops. For tree crops, land is a pretty negligible cost. Water is about 35% of revenue, Labor is about 35%, and miscellaneous other costs are about 20%. Average profits are around 10% of revenue, but vary, and years with losses are pretty common.

Perhaps both of us are generalizing our experience to all or most farmers.

Regarding the capital discussion, the magnitude of the capital outlay and returns are relevant, even if capital value is retained. A $100k annual profit is good for a $1M investment, but crappy for a $10M investment.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the state eminent domained their water rights without compensation. To be fair, the water rights in California were asinine, to the point that if you could connect to the aquifer you could take as much as you want, regardless of your size of land or need, and the collapse of the aquifers during overuse in drought caused entire cities to lose access to water as their wells dried up, and the farmers that could afford…

I'm for balancing aquifers for long term sustainability, but the way to do it is to buy the groundwater rights from farmers who own them. If the state wants your house for public benefit, they have to pay you for it at market rate. They can't just size it and throw you on the street. The current implementation of the 2014 Sustainable Groundwater Management Act (GWMA) is largely ignores prior ownership and is in confl…

> the way to do it is to buy the groundwater rights from farmers who own them.

As I stated, the way groundwater rights were before was brain dead. It makes no sense to buy partial rights when the use limits are "unlimited", and buying full rights means that the farmer can't grow at all, but even if you tried to do that the farmer would tell you to go to hell because you're how much are you offering for the alternative, which is a theoretical effectively unlimited amount of water?

I'm not going to defend the specific way they went about changing it, but I am going to restate that the water rights have been a complete mess since forever, farmers have been taking advantage of this in CA since it's been that way, and if they're getting the short end of the stick right now, well I'm not going to lose too much sleep since they've had such an awesomely good deal to this point and used it to put the entire state in a bad place.

I feel bad for anyone that started farming recently and got caught up in this (but really, they should have looked at the state of what what going on and reassessed), but for anyone that's been taking advantage of the situation for decades, you've got an uphill battle to convince me they deserve better.

For anyone that wasn't overusing water previously, I would like to hope they aren't being fined a lot or at all. I suspect that those complaining about large fines are probably people that have been extreme water users in the past. If not, I'm happy to hear of someone making a case they don't deserve their fines that has had both sides weigh in.

> but not before most of the farmers harmed have lost everything.

They gambled that there wasn't going to be a revision of water rights that stopped their overuse, and they lost that gamble. They all knew what they were doing. It was one of the biggest stories in the state for multiple years.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#163
post #158
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laundry used to be extremely uncommon activity, among other things it damages extremely expensive clothing. It really only started to consume significant time as the production of textiles exploded.

It was done, it had to be done still. Just not that often and it was massive work. Source: I visited laundry museum once and it was pretty clear they have done it.

It was done yes. Did they all wash their outer clothes every month let alone every week, no.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm for balancing aquifers for long term sustainability, but the way to do it is to buy the groundwater rights from farmers who own them. If the state wants your house for public benefit, they have to pay you for it at market rate. They can't just size it and throw you on the street. The current implementation of the 2014 Sustainable Groundwater Management Act (GWMA) is largely ignores prior ownership and is in confl…

> the way to do it is to buy the groundwater rights from farmers who own them. As I stated, the way groundwater rights were before was brain dead. It makes no sense to buy partial rights when the use limits are "unlimited", and buying full rights means that the farmer can't grow at all, but even if you tried to do that the farmer would tell you to go to hell because you're how much are you offering for the alternativ…

I'm not sure that I will change your mind but I wanted to clear up a couple misconceptions.

>As I stated, the way groundwater rights were before was brain dead.

On this we can agree

>It makes no sense to buy partial rights when the use limits are "unlimited", and buying full rights means that the farmer can't grow at all, but even if you tried to do that the farmer would tell you to go to hell because you're how much are you offering for the alternative, which is a theoretical effectively unlimited amount of water?

Groundwater rights are not unlimited in places where multiple people use the water. If you share an aquafer with others, rights are granted based on historic seniority and frozen at historic usage. If there is not enough water to support all of the users, water use is capped and the last new user loses their usage first. If a new user wants water, they can buy the rights to take X gallons/year from someone with the right. Historically, when cities grew or new farms moved in, they did just that.

Alternatively If you were the only user of an aquafer, you had the right to drain it dry. Like oil, gold, or other natural resources, you literally bought the rights to all of it with the land.

This was the precedent and is the law, so I think it is unfair to characterize the farmers as abusing the system, especially those that have been operating within their X gallons/year or priority rights. In some instances, it was even the state of California that originally sold them the right to X gallons/year in perpetuity.

Que 2014. The state mandated that all aquafers have neutral input and output by 2040 and this is where things get crazy. Instead of unwinding of usage based on priority of assigned groundwater rights per the law, commissions were set up to resolve the problem. The commissions don't have the legal power to take away the water rights, or the funds to eminent domain them, so the settled on selectively fining farmers for exercising their water rights as the least legally questionable path forward. These are the cases proceeding through the courts now. However, most small to moderate farms don't have funds for a decade of legal battle against the state.

>For anyone that wasn't overusing water previously, I would like to hope they aren't being fined a lot or at all. I suspect that those complaining about large fines are probably people that have been extreme water users in the past. If not, I'm happy to hear of someone making a case they don't deserve their fines that has had both sides weigh in.

The implementation is not to structured to curtail "overuse". "Fines" are a flat rate/gallon and set above 10x the possible revenue/gallon in some areas. This means there is no relief by scaling back. The point is to drive farms business out entirely. Many farmers offered to compromise by winding down their businesses, stop planting, and then fully pull up their farms and bring water usage to 0 by the 2040 deadline. This would keep them from losing their lives work, let them recoup costs, while meeting the state mandate. The state found this compromise unacceptable.

>They gambled that there wasn't going to be a revision of water rights that stopped their overuse, and they lost that gamble.

The farmers gambled that the rule of law would protect them and respect their groundwater rights, and in this respect, they were overconfident. I'm sure the largest users that are fighting will get paid out handsomely in settlement. However, the state probably saved billions by not buying the rights from the small farms and simply destroying their lives.

>They all knew what they were doing. It was one of the biggest stories in the state for multiple years.

They knew it was coming but had no possible exit strategy. Nut trees are profitable but have long lead times to return investment, especially smaller farms with lower profit margins. If your life savings and retirement are tied up in a non-fungible asset for 20 years, all you can do is hope.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the way to do it is to buy the groundwater rights from farmers who own them. As I stated, the way groundwater rights were before was brain dead. It makes no sense to buy partial rights when the use limits are "unlimited", and buying full rights means that the farmer can't grow at all, but even if you tried to do that the farmer would tell you to go to hell because you're how much are you offering for the alternativ…

I'm not sure that I will change your mind but I wanted to clear up a couple misconceptions. >As I stated, the way groundwater rights were before was brain dead. On this we can agree >It makes no sense to buy partial rights when the use limits are "unlimited", and buying full rights means that the farmer can't grow at all, but even if you tried to do that the farmer would tell you to go to hell because you're how much…

> If you share an aquafer with others, rights are granted based on historic seniority and frozen historic usage.

That's at odds with that I understand was the norm. As I understand it, prior to 2014, if you had access to an aquifer, you could access as much of it as you wanted. No agency tracked or limited you in any way. The water board notes[1] that while the british unregulated system was deemed inappropriate in 1903, but that in most areas of the state landowners can use it as they want, and in a few southern California basins, it's controlled by court decrees. Notably, it doesn't seem like the appropriative or riparian rights systems that are used in water above ground is used in ground water rights.

If you have references to where some water use amount is specific and based on historic usage, and also not specific to subsets of California, then I'd be happy to review them.

> Alternatively If you were the only user of an aquafer, you had the right to drain it dry. Like oil, gold, or other natural resources, you literally bought the rights to all of it with the land.

If you mine, you own the rights to the area immediately under your property. You can't buy a mine entrance and mine the whole mountain behind it. Aquifers provide an unique challenge when considering them like mineral rights. Unlike an aquifur, if you mine the mineral resource in one area the relevant resource does not get pulled from subsequent areas you do not have the rights for to replenish it.

It makes no sense that a single plot of land can drain an entire aquifer as much as they want that may be many square miles, while the plot may be much smaller. People that live above the aquifer also have rights to that water, but their resource is being stolen.

> this is where things get crazy. Instead of unwinding of usage based on priority of assigned groundwater rights per the law

I'm still under the impression that for many, many areas, there are no specific groundwater rights between parties that specify use to unwind. If you're referring to the specific scheme in a particular county, as a state level regulation, I'm not surprised that it may barrel through those, but I also think trying to appease every individual county's system would be untenable.

> The commissions don't have the legal power to take away the water rights

They don't need to, if the state water board is to be trusted (but they are incentivized to not believe that, so if you have an alternative set of information I would be happy to read it). As the state water board presents it[1], "In the 1903 case Katz v. Walkinshaw, the California Supreme Court decided that the “reasonable use” provision governing other types of water rights also applies to groundwater." If that's the case, even though CA hasn't been regulating groundwater use much and in most places, doesn't mean they can't, and that's what they're doing now.

> However, most small to moderate farms don't have funds for a decade of legal battle against the state (as intended).

That's why there are special interest groups that I'm sure are behind a few cases to provide some muscle to try to get case law decided or some laws/regulation deemed unconstitutional. Every individual small farmer is not in an active case, they're waiting on bigger cases to come back with decisions they can use. I'm sure we both know how this works.

> The implementation is not to structured to curtail "overuse". "Fines" are a flat rate/gallon and set above 10x the possible revenue/gallon in some areas.

That seems like a good way to get farmers to stop growing water intensive crops and focus on crops that use much less water.

> This would keep them from losing their lives work and recoup costs, but this unacceptable.

Sounds a lot like people trying to get around the current regulations and changes in the hope it will all be reversed or changed in a year or two, in my opinion.

> The farmers gambled that the rule of law would protect them and respect their groundwater rights

I would say they gambled that the complete lack of state level regulation that they'd enjoyed to date would continue.

> They knew it was coming but had no possible exit strategy. Nut trees are profitable but have long lead times to return investment, especially smaller farms with lower profit margins.

And we've known for a long time that water was a problem, and the laws on the books are 6-7 years old at this time. Anyone that was planting nut trees a decade ago was taking a gamble they lost out on.

1: https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/about_us/water_boards_structu...

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What crop and acreage are you working with? Corn, soys, wheat, edible beans. Understandably, different types of farms will be different. > Labor and management was year round with no off season. In this northern climate there isn't much you can do in the winter under the blanket of snow, save animal husbandry. And even then I know quite a few farmers with animals who only keep animals through a portion of year exac…

Thanks again for sharing. I wonder what keeps prices up or competitors out if returns are so high and work is so low for those crops. For tree crops, land is a pretty negligible cost. Water is about 35% of revenue, Labor is about 35%, and miscellaneous other costs are about 20%. Average profits are around 10% of revenue, but vary, and years with losses are pretty common. Perhaps both of us are generalizing our experi…

> land is a pretty negligible cost.

Where for me rent is around 25% of revenue and would be more like 35% if I had to rent the acres I own. If you have the capital to buy your land, that's 35% of revenue you can realize as profit right there. The problem for the average Joe without capital is that if you are trying to rent or pay a mortgage, the profit diminishes very quickly. That is why it is pretty much impossible for regular people to enter the industry.

> A $100k annual profit is good for a $1M investment, but crappy for a $10M investment.

The growth in value of the business is most important, really. A $100k annual profit on a $10M investment is pretty good if the $10M investment is also worth $50M a decade later. That's what farmers bank on. Cashflow is necessary to keep things solvent, but not really why you're there.

It is no doubt one of those things that seems unsustainable, and funny things can indeed happy, but every decade I look back I kick myself for not investing more. At the end of the day it's pretty fun, though, so it's worth taking some risks just for the value of the enjoyment.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#167
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with this debate isn't about how much people have worked in the past, but more about what actually is work. For example, in today's society we do not think of basic chores like laundry as work, but in the past laundry was far more labor-intensive due to the lack of washing machines. Is repairing your broken furniture or clothes work? Is preparing your own food work? Those things are trivialized in…

I don’t disagree, however most people really didn’t have much stuff in preindustrial societies and it generally lasted a very long time. Having say a separate bed for your children was a sign of relative wealth. American plantation owners are the equivalent of local nobility not farmers. Similarly, food preparation generally involved minimal ingredients and as little effort as possible. Women where often working in f…

But what they did have was astronomically expensive. Prior to the invention of a spinning wheel (late medieval), it took somewhere around 100 hours of labor to create a square yard of fabric. At minimum wage, that would make a shirt using 2-3 yards of fabric cost about $1,400-2,100. Imagine if the cheapest clothing available was Gucci and you were making minimum wage, and that would be almost as bad as medieval peasants had it.

Most peasant women probably spent virtually all of their spare time spinning yarn[1]. Most holidays weren't days where they completely stopped working; they were just days where they only did light, low-focus work that wouldn't preclude having a conversation, like spinning yarn.

[1] https://acoup.blog/2021/03/19/collections-clothing-how-did-t...

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#168
post #163
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was done, it had to be done still. Just not that often and it was massive work. Source: I visited laundry museum once and it was pretty clear they have done it.

It was done yes. Did they all wash their outer clothes every month let alone every week, no.

I don't wash my jackets or jeans that often either. Laundry was not "extremely uncommon" thing. It was thing that needed to be done in every household.

The switch to washday as in once a week washing cloth happened in period we talk about - after 1800. That is when you would spend one whole day in the week doing laundry.

Before that, you still had to do it, less often, but it took even more work due to lack of soap.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#169
post #89
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if the subsidies stopped and some farmers quit, then the producers would have to pay more. And farmers would return. I don’t get this constant subsidies to farmers everywhere. We take your taxes and shove it to farmers so you can have cheap corn and get fat. Maybe if some products werent so heavily subsidiest farmers would other, better food.

Remember that these agricultural feedback cycles are not instant and demand for food is only flexible to a point (if people starving is not a viable option). Removing production capabilities quickly, even with price increases, does not make for fewer mouths to feed.

You can do it gradually. Just look at Netherlands and New Zealand

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#170
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Entitlement" is a term of art [1] that means that the farmers are legally entitled to those benefits. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement

Doesn't mean it was not a bad choice of a word to represent the concept. Politicians who create and use these terms are doing it with intent, if it was up to them, they would indeed starve the farmers, you, me and everyone we know.

Or maybe the word was subverted after it was chosen to represent this concept? Not saying it was the case (I don't know) just mentioning the possibility.
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