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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#161

Post by joelbluminator »

himinlomax wrote: post #148
joelbluminator wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hungary aside, most of Israel's allies in the region are dictatorships, actaully all of them: Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Morocco (arguably, let's agree it's not a liberal democracy) and so on and so on. There are zero democracies in the area. So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; it's not like the oppositions to these dictators are any bette…

> There are zero democracies in the area Lebanon used to be more democratic; Iran was democratic at one point. What happened to Mossadegh?

Neither of them was democratic as in liberal, free press, human rights etc etc. Iran afaik was a full blown dictatorship before the islamic revolution (it's still a dictatorship, but different), Lebanon's history is more complicated but I stand by my view that it was never a liberal democracy, definitely not in the last 40 years.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#162

Post by chpatrick »

paganel wrote: post #32
poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively, with no fraud allegations involved (unlike what currently happens in the US, I'm talking about election fraud allegations). What's with this "Belorussian-style regime" nonsense?

The last election they won fair and square was 2010. After that, one of their first acts was to modify the previously proportional electoral system to ensure that they get a supermajority in parliament despite winning 40%. Since then, they've had full control over the constitution and the law despite 60% of the country not voting for them, and all "debate" has been pointless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Hungary#The_votin...

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#163

Post by biscotte_ »

ethbr0 wrote: post #129
biscotte_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India and USA are often cites as examples of federations than EU should look to implement but that comparison is not valid. The US were a blank page, with roughly the same crowd starting with the same common goal and aspirations. Europe comes with 15centuries of nationlike structures and history. Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches on life and work (particularly visible in the “PIGS” recent controver…

Both India and the US also had their bloody moments to make it happen, in the Partition (and then Bangladesh Liberation War) and Civil War respectively.

True, but there have been many attempts to create Europe in the past, the 3rd Reich being one of them, Napoleon, and others before. Europhiles dont like that reminder but people at the time used the same rethoric of “building the great Europe”, “nations are too old etc”, I can give you references of actual political figures of the 30s and 40s who had that speech and led their country to collaboration with the nazis in the name of “Europe”.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#164

Post by swiley »

iamnotwhoiam wrote: post #102

Does anyone have any idea how Pegasus actually works? I haven't found any teardowns or even a clear description of what the iMessage says. This is some kind of code injection attack that can go through a text message?

The iMessage exploit sounds like a Null terminated string issue.

The rest of it sounds like a Metasploit-esque framework along with some telemetry tools.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#165

Post by mlang23 »

hyper_dynamics wrote: post #88
Hokusai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge

Why, exactly? For not kissing the rainbow flag? Or for opposing illegal immigration? Those are the topics presented through media lately, and the argument is rather weak. In fact, I think many politically centered people dont actually sympathize with this "you are not hip enough, you have to leave"-mentality.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#166

Post by doctorbaum »

_abox wrote: post #146
roenxi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. I've travelled a lot in Eastern Europe and I think I know where this is coming from. When communism fell, people rejoiced in joining the EU and getting all the benefits of a free society. However what really happened was that those spoil…

I'll just add that in Israel there is a similar problem with older immigrants from the former USSR (a big wave of them came to Israel just after the USSR imploding), where they don't have any meaningful pensions saved up.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#167

Post by thinkindie »

zpeti wrote: post #137
roenxi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

and just to clarify - joining the EU is an exercise of free will. Countries are met with some conditions and it's their decision to join or not. This is valid for both Hungary and Poland. If they don't want to be part of EU any longer I think Brexit showed the way, and all the consequences of that.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#168

Post by saagarjha »

> The son and one of the closest confidants of former oligarch Lajos Simicska. They were both selected as targets before the Hungarian national election of April 2018. Back then, Simicska was the owner of a media empire, and he was openly waging war against the Orbán government. (It would have been futile to target Simicska with this spyware as he did not use smartphones.)

There's literally no winning here. You can literally disconnect from the internet and they'll just target the people around you…

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#169

Post by Dma54rhs »

dessant wrote: post #77
jsbdk wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many people, any political change that is not a move towards an even more liberal view of the world is automatically authoritarianism.

I think what's important is respecting human rights, not ideological affiliation, and in that sense Hungary has noticeably regressed in the past decade.

Human rights are a human construct and constantly change over time.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#170

Post by pjc50 »

roenxi wrote: post #105
Hokusai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something

Yes, but is the thing they're upset about and the thing they're directing their anger towards actually linked?

It's often hugely successful in politics to say "all your problems are the fault of this external bad actor" rather than "we have a problem and it's going to take a lot of hard work to fix it". It's very easy to blame external Jewish financiers (George Soros always gets a namecheck) and gay people for all your problems. The last time people did that en masse in Eastern Europe it ended up with extermination camps and millions dead.

Arguably Hungary's problems are due to the international finance industry, but there's nothing especially Jewish about it, just good old mis-selling. See e.g. https://www.ft.com/content/6c27cfbc-f50b-11e2-94e9-00144feab... - Orban took on the banks, which has to have been a big help to his popularity.

The EU is not blameless in this: https://www.escp.eu/news/eu-convergence-narrative-played-key...

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