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Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

nature.com

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Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#161

Post by timr »

nokcha wrote: post #83
hammock wrote: post #4

This is great news, adding to a report in Nature that the natural immunity produced in people who have already had covid may last a lifetime.[1] In case you hadn't heard, the Cleveland Clinic--consistently regarded as one of the top hospital systems in the United States and in the world--recently shared a study of 52,238 patients showing zero incremental benefit from the jab to the previously infected, recommending t…

>a study of 52,238 patients showing zero incremental benefit from the jab to the previously infected This study ended May 15, 2021, and it notes that: >Lastly, it is necessary to emphasize that these findings are based on the prevailing assortment of virus variants in the community during the study. It is not known how well these results will hold if or when some of the newer variants of concern become prominent. Ano…

"for people already seropositive for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies from a previous infection, getting the first dose of an mRNA vaccine increased antibody titers by two orders of magnitude on average"

That's not what this says -- you're extrapolating that the vaccine somehow changed the immune response, when this letter is only providing data that people who already had Covid had a clear, ~immediate antibody response to vaccination. That's exactly what you expect to happen when immune people see an antigen for a second time.

In other words, the previously infected recipients already had a well-primed immune response. The vaccination isn't necessarily doing anything to increase the response -- it's just the expected reaction of an already-primed immune system, when it a bolus of antigens it already knows about is injected into the body:

> The antibody titers of vaccinees with preexisting immunity were 10 to 45 times as high as those of vaccinees without preexisting immunity at the same time points after the first vaccine dose (e.g., 25 times as high at 13 to 16 days) and also exceeded the median antibody titers measured in participants without preexisting immunity after the second vaccine dose by more than a factor of 6.

If anything, this letter (not a paper) provides further evidence that vaccination for the previously infected is not necessary.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#162

Post by jaywalk »

CameronNemo wrote: post #135
wait_a_minute wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. Not in the United States lol, unless you work at some hospitals. Get vaccinated and wear a mask to avoid the Delta strain and stay at home more. You don't need to know someone else's status when you've got your own protection. Whenever someone tries to justify something with "but the collective" alarm bells should really start going off. You know that in Florida and other states where there are no mandat…

Masks do not provide as much protection for the users as for other people. I have a right to use public spaces.

> I have a right to use public spaces.

So do I, but you say I shouldn't because you're afraid.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#163

Post by peter422 »

sjwalter wrote: post #78
munk-a wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't - it's providing unified and clear guidance on vaccination. I'm up in Canada where vaccine hesitancy has been almost unheard of[1] and those who refuse to get vaccinated, excepting those that can't for medical reasons, are ostracized for their overtly selfish actions. The US, though, has a real problem with disinformation being accepted more readily than fact. I am fine with the theory of having a nuanced…

As a Canadian who emigrated to the US, the attitude you so proudly display--ostracizing people who aren't convinced of a novel vaccine with zero long-term safety information--makes me so happy I live here.

How sure are you about the long term effects of COVID?

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#164

Post by wonderwonder »

r00fus wrote: post #52

Can someone tell me why we (US) don't have a vaccine passport yet?

We cannot force some to isolate and others not too. We have reached a point where the vaccine is proven effective. Virtually anyone in the US that wanted to get a vaccine by now has had ample opportunity to do so. Those who choose not too will either contract the virus or not, that is their call. I am fully vaccinated and would encourage everyone to get vaccinated but I don't see how we have the right to force anyone to take a novel medication if they don't want to or restrict their movements. It is their body and their right to do as they wish. If we force people to take this medication, what is to stop people being forced to take something else that another group may disagree with.

The US has moved past isolation, its just not going to happen again, there is no political will for it. I fully support vaccination, I just don't support a police state asking to check our papers.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#165

Post by [deleted] »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #123
wait_a_minute wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should not and will not be a centralized way to document any such thing in the USA, and we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only. We will not restrict entry into normalcy on the basis of status, be it vaccination or antibody status. Florida and other states have been open for a long time and the numbers have been consi…

> we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only This is a regional thing. Most large events in New York have been mandating and verifying vaccination. Most major offices are tracking vaccination status--you're not barred, but you need to wear a mask if you aren't. (Though some are refusing the unvaccinated.) In dense, urban envir…

[deleted]

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#166

Post by reedjosh »

valeness wrote: post #149
reedjosh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because authoritarianism is antithetical to our founding nature. A centralized database that is used to control individuals is akin to China's social credit system. I've actually started seeing people argue for China style systems, and I find it both frightening and sickening. When I start to push back at all, I usually get arguments like `Leave the US if you don't like it.`, and sure I'll just pick up and leave the…

How is our credit score system much different than a centralized database used to control individuals?

It's a privately ran optional system. I do realize that society generally makes it non-optional, but then that gets into arguments about running a debt based monetary regime.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#167

Post by wait_a_minute »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #123
wait_a_minute wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should not and will not be a centralized way to document any such thing in the USA, and we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only. We will not restrict entry into normalcy on the basis of status, be it vaccination or antibody status. Florida and other states have been open for a long time and the numbers have been consi…

> we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only This is a regional thing. Most large events in New York have been mandating and verifying vaccination. Most major offices are tracking vaccination status--you're not barred, but you need to wear a mask if you aren't. (Though some are refusing the unvaccinated.) In dense, urban envir…

Sounds like New York will continue to lose population and significant tax revenue, then, by giving in to totalitarian ideas.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#168

Post by wonderwonder »

Steltek wrote: post #122
reedjosh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because authoritarianism is antithetical to our founding nature. A centralized database that is used to control individuals is akin to China's social credit system. I've actually started seeing people argue for China style systems, and I find it both frightening and sickening. When I start to push back at all, I usually get arguments like `Leave the US if you don't like it.`, and sure I'll just pick up and leave the…

Could you apply this same argument to taxes/SSNs, drivers licenses[+], and other existing centralized systems in the US? +: Let's be honest, driver's licenses are practically required and you attract extra scrutiny if you don't have one.

None of these violate your bodily autonomy.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#169

Post by jaywalk »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #123
wait_a_minute wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should not and will not be a centralized way to document any such thing in the USA, and we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only. We will not restrict entry into normalcy on the basis of status, be it vaccination or antibody status. Florida and other states have been open for a long time and the numbers have been consi…

> we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only This is a regional thing. Most large events in New York have been mandating and verifying vaccination. Most major offices are tracking vaccination status--you're not barred, but you need to wear a mask if you aren't. (Though some are refusing the unvaccinated.) In dense, urban envir…

Large events outside of New York have not had any such vaccine mandates, and have not led to any outbreaks. By the numbers, New York has handled the pandemic worse than any state in the US. I'm not sure we should be holding up any of the measures they've taken or are currently taking as any sort of holy grail.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#170

Post by reducesuffering »

michaelmrose wrote: post #150
reducesuffering wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not. There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. >I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on ge…

> There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. The virus is a moving target and what was true of the alpha variant may not be true of delta or downstream. I guess it depends on what you mean by excuse. If you mean allow people to say go on a cruise with a positive covid test as opposed to a vaccination record that seems tentatively reasonable. If you mean allow workers at…

If folks can't produce a confirmed positive covid test or antibody test, then they can effectively be treated as unprotected because there's no evidence they have protection, that's fine.

> If you mean allow workers at an old folks home to opt out based on a prior positive test that is unreasonable. If it makes you even possibly slightly less likely to kill the old folks you should get the jab.

Where is the line drawn? Maybe it would be more effective for people with 2 doses to get a third? What science is there showing antibodies + 1 shot is more marginal protection than 3 shots?

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