Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally • Hacker News Board

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#161

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

swensel wrote: post #131

rcruzeiro wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how often I got rejected after saying that I am not 24/7 available and that I believe that, if someone needs to have this kind of availability, it means that something in the company is not working and needs to be fixed. The words they used in the rejections were always something like: "we feel like you are not willing to put enough skin in the game" or "everyone else sees the opportunity here is is willin…

I don't like having to be on call 24/7 either and would prefer to work on a team that has 24/7 ops, so the devs don't have to do that. However, in the case of a startup where the devs also do ops, what is the option? I don't understand the part where you said that this means something in the company is not working and needs to be fixed if devs need to be on call. What happens if something goes wrong with an environme…

[deleted]

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#162

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

swensel wrote: post #131

rcruzeiro wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how often I got rejected after saying that I am not 24/7 available and that I believe that, if someone needs to have this kind of availability, it means that something in the company is not working and needs to be fixed. The words they used in the rejections were always something like: "we feel like you are not willing to put enough skin in the game" or "everyone else sees the opportunity here is is willin…

I don't like having to be on call 24/7 either and would prefer to work on a team that has 24/7 ops, so the devs don't have to do that. However, in the case of a startup where the devs also do ops, what is the option? I don't understand the part where you said that this means something in the company is not working and needs to be fixed if devs need to be on call. What happens if something goes wrong with an environme…

[deleted]

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#163

Post by varjag » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

rjzzleep wrote: post #137

swensel wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like having to be on call 24/7 either and would prefer to work on a team that has 24/7 ops, so the devs don't have to do that. However, in the case of a startup where the devs also do ops, what is the option? I don't understand the part where you said that this means something in the company is not working and needs to be fixed if devs need to be on call. What happens if something goes wrong with an environme…

Hire for it? Don't coerce your employees into doing something you you don't want to pay for? What most people don't think of is that when you're on 24/7 duty your salary is less than half of what it should be. Halfway decent enterprises will reimburse you for off-hour duty usually at multiple times your normal rate plus a minimum pay. Or just hire someone in a different timezone. The reality is though, most people do…

Isn't that what the company in question was trying to do, hiring the devs who are willing to do 24/7 too?

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#164

Post by mcguire » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

stephc_int13 wrote: post #157

A starving wolf asks a very well-fed dog what he should do to be bulky too. The dog advises him to put himself at the service of a human: the services rendered, he will be spoiled. The wolf then realizes that the dog has a wound where the human puts a leash on it. When he finds out that this injury is from the object depriving him of his freedom, he decides to run away with his freedom and return to the woods. This a…

If the wolf is truly starving, the only thing he is free to do is search for his next meal---at least until he becomes too weak to do that.

Freedom requires some level of security.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#165

Post by NeverFade » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

hluska wrote: post #133

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is you are taxed on them when you exercise them before you can actually sell them to get the money to pay the taxes.

I don't see how that is an issue. Exercising options is a form of income. Why not pay tax on income?

Exercising options is a form of income in theory. In practice these stocks very often go to zero, or a value lower than what you paid to exercise them.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#166

Post by FooBarBizBazz » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

hluska wrote: post #127

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is, how do you support this? You must have made a lot of money to both (a) support your family, and (b) pay for the childcare that your wife would have been too busy to help very much with. Either that, or you lived in a low cost of living area and were able to do some kind of price/salary arbitrage. And if the solution was "make a lot of money", then that again makes childcare doubly important, because if yo…

Why do you assume they have children? Not everyone choose to have children and frankly, that's a great decision. I'm a parent but I subscribe to the feeling that instead of assuming everyone has/wants kids, we should praise people who don't.

I started out assuming they had kids, but I did catch myself:

> Ah. I've left out the obvious option: You don't have kids, and don't plan to?

Yes, that's their business.

My problem isn't with their personal decision per-se. It's that today's myths ("the glorious and independent startup founder") encourage people to make sacrifices that they may not think about until it's too late. I think most people who chase the startup dream will regret it. I also think that there are other people, not founders on average, who benefit from these myths. So they should be treated with suspicion.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#167

Post by kingsuper20 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #142

kingsuper20 wrote: post #88

I was just musing about how the definition of 'startup' has changed. I've worked in a couple plus a few post-startup small companies, but they always involved a fairly expensive piece of boutique hardware. At best, stock options might mean a decent bonus after a few years and you work as long as they pay you. You take the job because it's interesting and because it's more fun to lay track than to fix it. Using foldin…

Yes, for sure, back in the 90s I fantasized about getting to work for a company like that. Just working on really neat tech, and getting to have some creative input and some technical excitement. I'm sure companies like this exist still, but the term "startup" and the investment around it seems to have been swallowed up into the kinds of things you mention.

Looking around, I've been really blessed by putting together a full career of that very sort of thing.

Some things you have to watch, especially if you are selling domain knowledge as an employee, is that products in a given subindustry will tend to become cheaper/higher volume/lower margin over time, the push for Asian manufacture always becomes a reality, and as companies age they acquire the anchor of supporting and repeating old products.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#168

Post by mcguire » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

tolbish wrote: post #113

flippinburgers wrote: post #77

Underpaid and overworked. That is what one gets out of startups. I unfortunately seem to be permanently stuck grinding for startups (10+ years). Don't do it to yourself. It isn't worth it.

Might I ask why it is infeasible to apply for a job at a non-startup?

When your CV is a list of failures, it becomes self-reinforcing?

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#169

Post by spoonjim » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

rjzzleep wrote: post #101

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #36

I think this is a really good article, but I think that one of the things it misses is that a huge reason the math works out so badly for startup employees is because founders and VCs take the lion's share of the gains. I mean, in my experience at startups, founders typically own around 40% of the equity. The option pool for all other employees is around 10-20%. Now, I certainly believe startup founders deserve far m…

From my own household/wife I have a person who's worked her ass off for a hugely incompetent CEO who has a majority stake. When I say ass off I mean 12-14 hours a day even on weekends. A promise of unlimited holidays and then coercing all employees to work during government mandated holidays and now he's trying to scam her out of her less than 1% options by coercing her to write a maternity leave policy that would ma…

So... why does your wife stay there?

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#170

Post by NeverFade » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

derwiki wrote: post #103

NeverFade wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. As a senior engineer, I get startup offers at the Staff-Principal levels, and even those grant no more than 0.1-0.5% equity at most, on top of ~$180-200k salary. That simply isn't competitive with big established companies like FAANG that offer me $400k+, far better career growth prospects, and far lower risk. For most startups, the equity will be worthless, and the whole company will either shut down or get a…

Why especially as a senior eng?

Fatter options package = you pay more taxes when you exercise. Also, the opportunity cost of giving up on big company roles is higher.