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Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

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Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#161
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think framing matters a lot here. I'm sure the dutch were particularly pragmatic in this regard, but fundamentally, the EU/US corporate tax system is based on profits, unlike for individuals, where it's based on revenue (aka income). And unfortunately, profits are largely a bookkeeping exercise - intrinsically so, not just due to tax loopholes. After all, who is to say which part of a multinational "created" the va…

The problem with taxing revenue instead of profit is that it allegedly would stifle reinvestment. Whether that's actually true or just convenient storytelling (like e.g. with trickle down and patents) is a whole different story. What you described certainly plays a role too. But it is not what I was pointing at. What I wrote is no doubt speculative and only meant as contextual background. Still, here we have a countr…

The wikipedia page on the infamous double irish with a dutch sandwich has a considerable list of similar arrangements, and most of those do not involve the dutch tax authority - in fact, Ireland moved to make the tax avoidance possible without a dutch intermediary in 2007, which is, well... brazen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

And there are quite a few other analysis of tax havens, including specifically an analysis by zucman in 2018 (which is specifically interesting because it looks not at qualitative interpretations or total corporate profit, but at BEPS specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_haven#Tax_haven_lists or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Zucman#Zucman-T%C3%B8r...

To summarize wikipedia here; it's convenient to distinguish between conduit OFCs (i.e. countries that make it relatively easy to pass profits through) and sink OFCs (i.e. countries where the profits end up in with low or no taxes). And his interpretation (in 2018) according to wikipedia: "Research published by Zucman, Tørsløv and Wier in June 2018, showed that Ireland is the largest corporate tax haven in the world, even larger than the entire Caribbean corporate tax haven system.[4][5][6] This research also showed that tax disputes between high–tax jurisdictions and corporate tax havens are extremely rare, and that tax disputes really only occur between high–tax jurisdictions.[16]"

However, it's notable that the conduits are fairly large: "Ireland, Singapore, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom"; whereas the sinks are a little more unusual: "British Virgin Islands, Luxemburg, Hong Kong, Jersey, Bermuda".

Much of this research is a little old however, and political will does seem to exist to change things; e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateral_Convention_to_Imp... has entered into force in most places except greece and hungary where it will in july 2021 (and the United States isn't a party, oddly enough, but then again this would have been a Trump era decision, so perhaps that's not unexpected).

Whatever the current status; it surely can't harm to keep up the pressure on the Netherlands, Ireland and Luxembourg given their status as EU members. Given the significant role of British oversees territories, ironically I suspect that Brexit will help reduce tax-avoidance - after all, without the UK protecting their interests, it's unlikely jurisdictions like Jersey or the British Virgin Islands will be able to escape the current restrictions as they had been before.

Nevertheless, I think it's worth remembering that much of this focuses on outright tax avoidance, yet which tax rates are considered "low" is itself a choice - and here too the Irish rate is quite low: https://taxfoundation.org/2021-corporate-tax-rates-in-europe..., so even without outright BEPS, it's still a kind of tax haven within the EU. Frankly, the existance of differing corporate tax rates in a single market sounds problematic to me, but hey...

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#162
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you (or the corporation) have no money - yes. That's exactly how it works for individuals, and how it should work for corporations too; they would need to take a loan (or dip into capital) to cover the 50$ loss, and would then similarly need to cover whatever tax was on revenue. Obviously taxes on revenue would not need to be as high as on profit to generate the same tax income, so for most businesses this i…

> Obviously taxes on revenue would not need to be as high as on profit to generate the same tax income No income has been generated by a business running at a loss. You had a number of things. Now you have less. Nothing was generated. You can distribute all you want, but you have less all of the time. > It would also be hell of a lot simpler, because all those crazy shell company incentives go away There's nothing wr…

As an individual, if you spend more in a year than you earn, are you still required to pay taxes? Of course.

Whether or not a corporation is profitable is not relevant. A corporation that is consistently loss making may fold slightly more quickly - that sounds like a good thing.

But a corporation that has any control over its prices yet has low margins shouldn't be troubled by this - other competitors are likely in the same boat.

Taxing revenue instead of profit encourages high-margin businesses, which is fine by me; and it doesn't subsidize loss making - also, fine by me.

Shell companies aren't hugely problematic, but they are problematic.

Problem #1: every extra corporation is problematic, because of the built in risk-collectivization - i.e. excess profit is privatized, but excess risk is protected by bankruptcy. Having networks of cooperating corporations can make it easier to push losses onto others, which incentivizes worse than zero-sum economic behavior.

Problem #2: complexity. Complexity is bad; it simply introduces friction, and unforeseen consequences. Notably, stuff like the double irish with a dutch sandwich not only required various limitations in irish and dutch law, but also the ability to create arbitrary corporations. Each law taken by itself seems reasonable, but the interactions in combination with the complexity that shell companies enable allows for undesirable consequences.

Problem #3: Lack of transparency. It's easier to hide fraud or simple unwanted behavior when things get complicated, or even when things involve multiple jurisdictions. Economic actors - i.e. us - don't behave randomly, we look for opportunities. And people will take opportunities that are to the detriment of society, whether entirely legal or not. The ability to see those problems is critical to being able to mitigate their consequences, or solve them outright.

So yes, I do think shell companies have an intrinsic cost. I'm not sure what your background is, but to pick a simile - it's kind of like the cost of lock-free multithreading - it may appear to work, but the chaos can hide bugs that are hard to find, and hard to pin down, and fixing one may introduce another. Having decent, comprehensible abstractions helps, but legal systems aren't easily engineered top-down like that; they're evolved in each jurisdiction separately, and piece by piece, with lots of input from the very bad actors that are abusing the loopholes. It's unlikely we'll find ideal "abstractions" in that world if they even exist; so keeping things as comprehensible and simple as possible is a boon.

Shell companies without actual economic value represent complexity and are thus bad.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. The main problem is that if you are small, you most likely don’t have expensive accountants who will find every possible way to find legal loop holes to reduce our tax burden plus you don’t have the political connections to lobbying for certain exclusions or deals by the politicians. This is why small businesses are the ones which get hurt the most by things like raising taxes, minimum wage etc. There’s a…

The main problem is that there are such legal loopholes.

Agreed. Unfortunately I don't see that going away. Politicians don't write bills - lobbyists do.
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