Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships • Hacker News Board

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#161

Post by frobozz » Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 9:19 PM UTC

nicpottier wrote: post #87

frobozz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and not just for complete noobs. If (as an experienced hire) you start a job somewhere enterprisey, the amount of bureaucracy and induction procedure you experience in your first week can mean that you won't be a productive employee for at least a week, if not two. You'll probably still be taking time from experienced employees for months. You still get paid. In such a place, the first week of employment of a…

These aren't comparable. One is an investment in the person that pays off over time, the other isn't. Yes, an employee takes just as long to get up to speed as an intern, but hopefully that investment is paid off by years of work afterwards. For a two or three month internship, you might spend half their time in getting them up to speed. And for that, you get the same amount of work (best case), then they are gone. Y…

The only reason they aren't comparable is because the intern is an intern. Not because the intern is a neophyte.

My point (possibly not particularly well made) was not that you should take on inexperienced pretend employees, treat them like real employees for three months, then get rid of them; but that you should take on inexperienced real employees and treat them like real employees.

Three months is a pretty normal probationary period for a real employee, so you can just as easily get rid of one if it doesn't work out; as you can an intern.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#162

Post by walkon » Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 9:22 PM UTC

I'm confused. Who forces people to work for free?

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#163

Post by philwelch » Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 9:34 PM UTC

zeemonkee wrote: post #41

cturner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a temptation in politics to see patterns and then fit language to it that kind of fits. It's important not to do this, because it ruins the sense of scale. For example, when someone describes a politician they don't like as a "fascist" it's disrespectful to the memory of people who are squashed under tanks and who are taken in the night by state agents, raped and murdered. Along these lines, it doesn't fit to…

Along these lines, it doesn't fit to equate unpaid internships to serfdom. Serfdom involves effectively permanent, near total servitude to a landowner for most aspects of life. You don't travel. You don't get educated. You don't have upside. You can't escape. You're screwed. An unpaid internship is not at all like this. Unpaid internships are not "essentially a form of serfdom". No, but that's how serfdom started - t…

Since when did a living wage for a day's work become a controversial issue?

It's a question of producing wealth. The value of a day's work depends upon the worker, but you can't seriously expect a business to pay someone more than the amount of wealth they create for them. If it's a fundamental human right to have a certain level of income, pass a law providing for a guaranteed minimum income and let businesses pay the market rate. It makes no sense to expect businesses to operate as charities.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#164

Post by yellowredblack » Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 9:36 PM UTC

This is what I learned from a half-day legal seminar in california aimed at startups:

In California, unless the work is for course credit at an established institution, an intern must be paid minimum wage. If not, the intern can do the work, and then file with the state, which will then do all the investigation. The intern doesnt need to get a laywer. They get the state's lawyers looking for a hefty fine, back taxes, and the opportunity to audit the hell out of someone. Start-ups are especially vulnerable to this because programmers who would normally be exempt probably aren't making enough and should be paid overtime. The state doesn't care what those programmers want. They want their back taxes.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#165

Post by paolomaffei » Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 9:37 PM UTC

This guy clearly never had a company.

We do not pay our interns and still lose money in the process if we don't hire them after because we have lost too much time not just training but also fixing errors people at their first experience will do.

Nevertheless we still invest on internships because that's the only way to snap good talent just out of university.

So please, stop the bullshit. Yeah, and downvote away.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#166

Post by pessimizer » Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 9:45 PM UTC

zeemonkee wrote: post #125

jcromartie wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's even more to the parallel: many unpaid interns are kids coming from expensive schools with high levels of student debt.

There's something going on here. I don't know about the US, but in the UK social mobility is actually worse than in the 1950s: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555697/UK-one-of-wor... So, you have a pattern where: - More people are going into higher education - We are in the middle of a deep recession - As a consequence of these factors, there is less public money per student, so students have to pay more - As…

Review of a good primetime documentary about class mobility in Britain, including unpaid intern stuff: "Who Gets The Best Jobs? Review: Bank of Mum & Dad"

http://channelhopping.onthebox.com/2011/02/02/who-gets-the-b...

Some of the fallout: "Calvin Klein’s PR firm Modus admits on national TV: '20 of our 70 staff are unpaid interns'"

http://graduatefog.co.uk/2011/1230/calvin-klein-uniqlo-sienn...

Terrible youtube version starts at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNRP8xc5aFA

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#167

Post by OstiaAntica » Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 10:11 PM UTC

johngalt wrote: post #155

WillyF wrote: post #37

I didn't realize that the unpaid internship situation is as bad in Ireland as it is here in the U.S. My startup helps college students find entry level jobs and internships, so I'm constantly aware of what the latest trends are. One trend that really scares me is that there are some "career experts" whom I interact with regularly who offer their own unpaid virtual internships (I've seen lots of other internships like…

There will always be people looking to take advantage. I had a potential employer call me in for three multiple hour "interviews" during which time they grilled me on how I would handle problem X and design system Y. I was fairly naive because in hindsight it's obvious to me that they didn't want an employee just a free consultation. Smart hack on their part though, and I learned something too. For the right job I'll…

I had an interview where the company wanted me to produce, on my own time, a "sample" strategy memo that was obviously for a client proposal. It did it, and got the job offer, but it bothered me and I ended up turning down the job.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#168

Post by OstiaAntica » Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 10:14 PM UTC

ryanklee wrote: post #127

Klinky wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. Very few employees in the US make exactly the minimum wage, which is why it's true that minor increases have close to no effect. Keep in mind how many products are imported from third world countries that have poor labor standards & low wages. The current US lifestyle is heavily subsidized by this cheap labor. Additionally here in the US there is often abuse with illegal immigrants who make well below minim…

4.9% of US pop. working at or below minimum wage is hardly insignificant. http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2009.htm

They are all teenagers or part-timers.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#169

Post by walkon » Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 10:15 PM UTC

walkon wrote: post #162

I'm confused. Who forces people to work for free?

When down voting, please explain.

If working as an unpaid intern is indeed horrible and so incredibly lacking in non-monetary value, then people will learn there is no reason to voluntarily engage (or continue) in such a relationship.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#170

Post by samspot » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 12:37 AM UTC

orangecat wrote: post #85

quanticle wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If your labour has value then you can find work that pays you a rate for it (except for minimum wage - more about this shortly). You have the opportunity to expose yourself to experience by doing internships. If you don't have anything better to be doing, then it's a win-win situation for you and the person you're doing internship. That only works in an absolutely frictionless labor market. Meanwhile, in the real wo…

Without a minimum wage, the number of consumers for any good beyond basic food, clothing and shelter products would be drastically cut. Unlikely. Very few employees in the US make exactly the minimum wage, which is why it's true that minor increases have close to no effect. There are massive lobbying efforts by big business every time the minimum wage issue comes up for debate True, for example WalMart lobbies in fav…

I can't speak for the whole economy, but when I was making $4.75 and the minimum wage increased from $4.25 -> $4.75, it had an effect on my morale (when i saw no increase).