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FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

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Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#161

Post by atlasunshrugged »

bustin wrote: post #151

I must have missed the memo that Prohibition worked after we banned alcohol and weed. This is a ridiculous overreach. The end game is for people to stop smoking altogether, and while that would be good for American health, this is so unnecessary. It is not the prerogative of our peers to maintain our health. It is our free right to poison ourselves in the ways we desire. In ten years from now when cigarettes are full…

I agree with your sentiment but I'm not sure it will be the same. The companies that make cigarettes are few and far between and are much more likely to obey government rules to make sure they stay in good graces of the government and can keep selling their other highly profitable products. With alcohol people could make it in stills in their basements and with pot it came from across the border - maybe menthols will too but I'm not sure it's a high value enough product to do so that I would consider it a 1:1 comparison to pot.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#162

Post by Jiocus »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #62
LargeWu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a more accurate way of framing it is "Menthols have been targeted specifically to black people, and also, they're even more harmful than regular cigarettes". It's definitely not "let's take this away because black people like it".

How are menthol cigarettes more harmful than regular ones? The menthol just makes it easier to smoke more. Is that the crux of your argument? I find the “company X is targeting [arbitrary subcategory]” argument to be totally asinine btw. Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines? Lastly there is nothing more patronizing than telling a black person that you’re p…

Menthol enhances nicotine delivery by altering nicotine metabolism. Menthol also interact with nicotine nACh receptors in the brain in various ways[1].

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720998/

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#163

Post by adamdusty »

sadgrip wrote: post #96
LargeWu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a more accurate way of framing it is "Menthols have been targeted specifically to black people, and also, they're even more harmful than regular cigarettes". It's definitely not "let's take this away because black people like it".

Sorry but where is the harm reduction for everyone else's race? Doesn't seem like it's a priority since the people in powerful also enjoy those vices. It's a bit coincidental that the races with less power also have the vices that they need to be protected by. My family is Mexican and they love tequila. I can guarantee you that if it was banned they'd all drink less alcohol and would be much less of a burden on our h…

I'm not going to argue for or against the ban, but tobacco companies specifically targeted african-americans to use them and the civil rights movement to defend industry policy.

Mexicans like tequila because it's made from agave which is easy to grow in the desert. Mexicans have loved tequila since before europeans even landed in mexico.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#165

Post by samatman »

elil17 wrote: post #145
veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Unlike other drugs, it is legal to grow your own tobacco in the US - even if you’re too young to buy it. They’re restricting what big corporations can sell, not what individual people can do. There’s nothing in this change stopping anyone from buying loose tobacco, adding their own flavor, and rolling cigarettes with it.

Excellent!

So an enterprising Black entrepreneur can buy some loose tobacco, menthol flavor, some tubes, a rolling machine, and go sell "loosies" on the corner.

And then the police can choke him to death!

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#166

Post by atlasunshrugged »

elil17 wrote: post #145
veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Unlike other drugs, it is legal to grow your own tobacco in the US - even if you’re too young to buy it. They’re restricting what big corporations can sell, not what individual people can do. There’s nothing in this change stopping anyone from buying loose tobacco, adding their own flavor, and rolling cigarettes with it.

I do wonder how hard it is to add menthol to existing cigarettes. Will we see Head Shops where you buy a pack of cigarettes and on the counter are menthol drops you can sprinkle on, and it's all technically legal since they're separate products?

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#167

Post by __blockcipher__ »

nicoburns wrote: post #139
__blockcipher__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the problem with socialized medicine. Once you institute it now your body belongs to the state. You’re not allowed to put something deemed bad in your body because the “people” have to pay for it. Prohibition is wrong. It’s not just unethical but impractical. And congrats, now cops aren’t just going to claim they smell weed in my car, they’re going to claim they smell menthol too. — Also your “waive your right…

What makes sense is to socialise medicine, and then have the body responsible for running that: 1. Run public health awareness campaigns to make sure that people (especially children / young people) are aware of the health risks. You can do similar things around healthy eating. 2. Treat drug usage and addiction as medical rather than criminal issue (so the police might confiscate your weed if they catch you with it,…

Socialized medicine by definition increases healthcare costs because it divorces the person creating the cost from bearing the results. This applies in basically every socialist system not just socialized medicine.

It’s also worth mentioning that public health awareness campaigns frequently stretch the science in the quest to moralize more effectively. Case in point: saturated fats, pretending everyone is equally vulnerable to AIDS, etc

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#168

Post by donatj »

ketzo wrote: post #103
ralusek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harm reduction? Why not ban alcohol? Why not cap cars at 55mph? People have lost money in the stock market, so I assume you'd like that banned as well. What is your limiting principle?

I mean, the short answer is risk vs. reward. Smoking is insanely bad for you, very addictive, and the benefits are, uh, marginal. To walk down your list: - Alcohol can be safely consumed in moderation, and is less prone to addiction. This comes the closest, though. - Cars have lots of places where they can be safely operated above that speed, and fast travel has lots of benefits. - The potential benefits of the stock…

> Alcohol can be safely consumed in moderation, and is less prone to addiction.

Tobacco can be consumed in moderation. I'll smoke a Wood Tip Wine Black and Mild about once a month, and my pipe on an occasional beautiful day.

The benefits are the extreme joy it brings me. It's one of my favorite things in life, and they're going to take it away.

Nicotine is amazingly pleasant and performance boosting unlike alternatives.

A good read:

https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#170

Post by the_lonely_road »

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

I don’t buy into the ban having racist roots but I am concerned about the result of the ban increasing race problems. There was a famous case in the past few years of a big black guy being killed during a police interaction and the underlying reason for the interaction was that he was selling loose cigarettes on the street.

Prohibition and the failed drug war have shown us that making something illegal won’t stop demand or supply. So now a bunch of black people who are physically hooked on a specific product are going to have it taken away (I smoked, it was a nightmare fight to quit) and for sure people are going to start selling bootleg product (unless menthol can’t be bootlegged, I know nothing about the creation of this product) and most of them will be black since most of the menthol demand is in black communities.

Unless the police don’t intend to try and stop this we would expect it to increase the amount of police interactions and then naturally increase the number of violent interactions leading to death.

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