The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world • Hacker News Board

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#161

Post by ska » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

hwillis wrote: post #156

Syonyk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

The median age of riders is ~50 while the average age of fatalities is 42. People over 50 make up significantly less than half of fatalities. However, you are still kind of correct- the number of fatalities picks up strongly at 50+. People 35-45 tend to be the safest. People 50+ are still on average significantly safer than Motorcycle fatalities are heavily associated with risk-taking more than anything else. There a…

> motorcycle riders in fatal accidents are alcohol-impaired,by far the highest of any vehicle category.

I think this is attributable mostly to the fact that fatality rate on any motorcycle accident is higher (for obvious reasons) and that alcohol is especially a contributing factor to single vehicle accidents.

If you are tipsy and go into a corner a bit fast in a car you can usually react in a way that will save it; many "gut" level reactions on a motorcycle will cause bad things to happen (e.g. most braking while already in a corner). Touching a soft shoulder is much, much easier to recover, etc.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#162

Post by neonological » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

Syonyk wrote: post #154

samdixon wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a similar theory about motorcycles. It's not batteries included, and some people ride like absolute madmen increasing the fatality rate.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

One part of being human is the ability to rationalize situations rather then be rational about the situation. Two very different things.

Our biases prevent us from recognizing this in ourselves ever.

Not saying you're rationalizing your behavior, but I'm saying it's a possibility. The only way to know for sure is to provide data to back up what you're saying.

What is your statistical risk profile based off of the conditions your provided?

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#163

Post by lbrindze » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

ghostpepper wrote: post #133

ArtWomb wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am certain if you ask 100 beginner divers, 99 will have their own brush with death adventures! Mine came in the form of a six foot barracuda getting a bit too close for comfort. I am sure if I hadn't played it cool. Had somehow attacked or acted aggressively to shush it away (when I was a guest in it's deep sea domain). It would have enjoyed a nice lunch of fresh human flesh. The second was going below the hard deck…

I'm very curious what gas blend were you using at 300 ft - I'm fairly sure that would be fatal on air or even nitrox. I'm also shocked that you could come up from that depth with any sort of urgency and not be seriously injured / killed by some form of DCS. Maybe I misunderstood and you were not a beginner, because otherwise that tour operator has no business running a dive op.

Nitrox is 100% fatal at depths beyond prescribed limit. The whole point of Nitrox is to increases the oxygen content in the gas to minimize nitrogen absorption. A side effect of this is that you will get to hyperoxic poisoning thresholds earlier on a deeper dive profile. This is why Nitrox requires additional certifications, to help understand these limitations and learn how to calculate your max operating depth. (when using nitrox wihtin these thresholds I find I have more energy at the end of my dive).

To go deeper you need to blend in inert gasses and decrease o2 and n2 to keep partial pressures below fatal doses. This means most commonly mixing in Helium to cut down on over o2 and n2 in your gas mix. Human tissue I guess doesn't absorb helium the same way it does n2.

Source: Open Water Scuba Instructor with multiple agencies... I havent taught in about 5 years though so some of this information may have changed, especially in light that global helium shortages (or US stock piles?) may have driven the price of He up to high to be used for mixed gas diving.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#164

Post by dhimes » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

mxcrossb wrote: post #157

spaetzleesser wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“not even go through the most basic safety checks prior to diving” From my experience the dive operators in tourist spots often don’t want you to touch anything. Kind of makes sense because most tourists like myself only have a very vague recollection of the procedure.

How many of those tourists will die as a result of this? The data seems to suggest it’s vanishingly small.

Exactly. Yes, cave diving is extremely dangerous. Deep diving also is dangerous. But there are dives, amazingly beautiful dives, that, while not devoid of risk, are very safe. Simple, shallow dives in the Caribbean, for example, where the benefit of the tank over snorkeling is just that you can stay down longer.

Diving is wonderful. Get certified (but you don't have to be for some dives).

I also sail. Also wonderful. Can be dangerous if you push the edge, but more likely embarrassing if you stay within your limits.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#165

Post by owenversteeg » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

Syonyk wrote: post #154

samdixon wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a similar theory about motorcycles. It's not batteries included, and some people ride like absolute madmen increasing the fatality rate.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

Interesting. I'd be curious to read your thoughts on mitigating risk with general aviation. Is there a checklist somewhere of "always do these 20 things" or do you have to comb the NTSB accident records yourself?

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#166

Post by throw1234651234 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

s_dev wrote: post #142

ethbr0 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First class of dive course at CWRU: Older Navy diver instructor walks in "So I know each of you is coming into this class with different levels of experience. What we're going to do first is a short test on your proficiency for 20 minutes. It will be graded on completeness, not correctness. You are not expected to know all the answers. I'm just interested in gauging what you know. Be aware, there are a lot of questio…

Other versions of this test include the last question being "Don't answer any questions". The habit the teacher was trying to impart was "read the whole paper" first before answering any questions -- particularly if there are multiple choice questions.

This is an irrational party(professor) trick that wastes everyone's time.

An argument could be made for "read the (short) instructions at the start". An argument cannot be made for this. There is often very little value to skimming the entire question set before the exam.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#167

Post by Syonyk » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

neonological wrote: post #162

Syonyk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

One part of being human is the ability to rationalize situations rather then be rational about the situation. Two very different things. Our biases prevent us from recognizing this in ourselves ever. Not saying you're rationalizing your behavior, but I'm saying it's a possibility. The only way to know for sure is to provide data to back up what you're saying. What is your statistical risk profile based off of the con…

It's certainly a possibility, and I've not sat down with a spreadsheet to optimize my risk profiles.

I like riding motorcycles, so I try to do it in as safe a way as reasonably possible. Right now, given that I'm typically on ill-handling sidecar rigs, that involves gear and no longer riding two wheels frequently.

I like small planes. Again, I try to find safer ways to do it.

But I recognize that these are still riskier activities, and I do them because I enjoy them, entirely aware of the risks involved.

"Trying to do the research to be able to quantify my risks and mitigations in a spreadsheet" doesn't sound terribly enjoyable to me, so I've no intensions of doing it.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#168

Post by pge » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

random5634 wrote: post #147

ghostpepper wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a vicious cycle though: tourists don't know how to dive safely so instead of making sure they know, we'll just set up their gear and throw them in the water. Tourists learn that this is normal, and become even less likely to know how their gear should be configured, which makes the next operator more confident in their decision to not let the tourist set up their own gear. The crew on a dive boat in a tropical d…

The problem dive locations have is a lot of people a) overstate experience or what they remember, b) are unfamiliar or have not tested equip they will be diving with and c) equip is not familiar to operator if they bring their stuff. People don't dive enough. So they buy all sorts of new stuff for their big new drift dive vacation. In some cases they've literally not been underwater with it for even 20 minutes. Also…

You touch on what I think is an important consideration. A lot of people want to get into diving but just don't have the time to do it consistently enough to be fully on top of it. They have a few days vacation and go do a nice destination and expect to jump right back in at the same level they have done before, or even worse they buy some new gear as if gear makes up for practice. Like with a lot of things, there is no substitute for time in the water as a diver. Good decision making and technique come from lots of consistent practice, that most people don't have the time to do.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#169

Post by whymauri » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

topynate wrote: post #130

Starwatcher2001 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really have only a vague recollection of basic safety checks you shouldn't be diving - seriously.

In Israel a short refresher course is mandatory if you haven't dived for six months. IMO any reputable company should require the same.

This should be mandatory for a lot of sports, honestly. Assisted climbing (lead, top-roping) comes to mind. Kinda crazy that in many gyms you can get on a wall with no verification that your belay knows what they're doing.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#170

Post by Syonyk » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

owenversteeg wrote: post #165

Syonyk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

Interesting. I'd be curious to read your thoughts on mitigating risk with general aviation. Is there a checklist somewhere of "always do these 20 things" or do you have to comb the NTSB accident records yourself?

You don't have to comb the NTSB records - they're aggregated by various groups.

A lot of them involve loss of control of some form or another - typically in instrument flight conditions, often enough by someone who either doesn't have an instrument rating or is badly out of practice. A VFR only pilot in the clouds has a lifespan measured in minutes.

Running out of fuel for some reason is depressingly common - and while an off-airport landing isn't automatically fatal, "pilot failed to monitor fuel in flight" is a pretty stupid reason to crash.

And avoid light twins. They're a lot more demanding when an engine fails, and typically don't handle off airport landings very well. There don't tend to be many injuries with twins - either you handle everything properly and land safely, or the aircraft leaves a small smoking crater in the ground.

A lot of it is simply looking at the sky, forecast, and deciding "You know, this just isn't a good day to put a small airplane in the sky." I consider night VFR to be fairly risky too. Clouds are invisible, visual illusions in sparsely populated areas are common, and it's hard to find a nice flat area to land if your engine quits at night.