Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#161

Post by herbst » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:51 AM UTC

graeme wrote: post #33

paxys wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin can be a collectible and a store of value without ever becoming a currency. Gold, art, baseball cards etc. all fall into that category.

Those all have some kind of use value, and a story attached. Gold makes beautiful jewelry, collector’s cards remind people of childhood and baseball flory, art is lovely to look at and a way to flaunt wealth or feel a connection through the ages. You can look at all three and feel a fuzzy glow of happiness as you ponder the attached narrative. My point was that, if the author’s argument is true, bitcoin will only hav…

> just as no one would collect “Digital token #385839, definitively devoid of use”.

As someone who gets regular offers for my 3 minute art pieces without promoting this anywhere or so. Literally just by having them. I have to disagree

I can't explain it but people definitly collect useless items

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#162

Post by herbst » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:56 AM UTC

Ansil849 wrote: post #15

As a casual observer I see the cryptocurrency space only seriously used by two groups of people: those who want to buy goods/services which are controlled in their or the seller's jurisdiction and so need a bit more anonymity than Paypal; and people who run ICO and more recently NFT swindles. I have yet to see a widespread other usage of cryptocurrency.

I don't know why people keep telling this. In reality most people who get into Bitcoin do this because they heard all those amazing stories of getting rich and when they check they see the value is rising, rising and still rising.

I doubt the far majority does even know what an ICO or NFT is and most of them likely still have and use their PayPal daily.

There is really nothing shady about protecting your money from failing currencies by investing in something that works right now.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#163

Post by herbst » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:58 AM UTC

throwaway81523 wrote: post #41

Ansil849 wrote: post #15

As a casual observer I see the cryptocurrency space only seriously used by two groups of people: those who want to buy goods/services which are controlled in their or the seller's jurisdiction and so need a bit more anonymity than Paypal; and people who run ICO and more recently NFT swindles. I have yet to see a widespread other usage of cryptocurrency.

I don't use bitcoin but one attraction I see is that it lets you spend your money without anyone else's permission. If you buy something with it, the seller gets the money without your having to worry about automated fraud checks causing your credit card to be declined, check to be put on hold, etc. It's like cash that way. Wire transfers might be an alternative, but they are only practical for fairly large transacti…

Over easter banking was essentially closed for 5 days due to holidays. A system that simply shuts down all business for 5 days feels so weird & dated

So its not only about permissions and burocracy but also that their system is old and sucks.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#164

Post by herbst » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

Closi wrote: post #60

throwaway81523 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use bitcoin but one attraction I see is that it lets you spend your money without anyone else's permission. If you buy something with it, the seller gets the money without your having to worry about automated fraud checks causing your credit card to be declined, check to be put on hold, etc. It's like cash that way. Wire transfers might be an alternative, but they are only practical for fairly large transacti…

Spending money without automated fraud checking, dispute resolution and the ability to do chargeback sounds like a great idea until you think for more than 2 seconds about why those things exist. And I’m not sure why I would want to maintain two currencies anyway, one for small payments where for some reason I don’t want protection, and another when I do want protection. Having to hold multiple currencies dependent o…

One big difference is that if i send someone Crypto they can't spend any more than i have sent them. If i give them my credit card (and they possibly even leak/loose it) i have a far bigger risk for fraud.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#165

Post by herbst » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

brutaltruth wrote: post #56

Congratulations to the author on missing that it's possible to swap tokens with DeFI, that bitcoin is one of the most liquid instruments in the world, and that Bitcoin isn't competing with cash: it's competing with a ledger entry at a bank that can go bust denominated in a currency that can be printed at will. (Leaving aside 3-10% fx conversion fees, ACH delays, wire deadlines, and more that prevent "dollars" from be…

People turning circles talking about how unstable crypto might is without even knowing about stablecoins (which might have their own downsides yes). You can have your whole net value in crypto but bound to the USD. Its not much different to traditional banking, except without all the issues brutalturth mentioned.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#166

Post by herbst » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 9:08 AM UTC

brbsix wrote: post #25

Even its strongest selling point, absolute privacy, is mostly a lie That only became a supposed selling point among the uninformed as a result of widespread misrepresentation in the media. At least from my perspective, nobody using it very early (i.e. 2011-12) was ever under any illusion that privacy or anonymity were a feature. People using it for illicit purposes have never been. Mixing services and informal broker…

This is the same timeline i remember. When Bitcoin was still new it did not seem a lot more practical for illegal/grey area things than other things that were already etablished (PaySafe, PerfectMoney or even PayPal for example).

It's only when the media picked up that drug markets are starting to use Bitcoin (they've been there before, just not at that scale) when the sentiment changed.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#167

Post by herbst » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 9:11 AM UTC

khazhoux wrote: post #2

One difference though is that all baseball cards were acquired for pennies originally, then grew in value. You don't have to spend a month of heavy-duty electrical bills or $50K to buy a fresh baseball card or a beanie baby or a pez dispenser.

I've spent like $200 for a graphics card (that i used for 6+ years after that) and $100 on power to mine about 3-5 Bitcoins within a few months until the summer heat did not allow me to proceed (plus back then it was literally not worth it).

However your argument is invalid. Also you could have just bought the $0.1 bitcoin back then. You also are not buying machines to build your own baseball cards and complain about the electric bill.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#168

Post by skohan » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 9:38 AM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #103

matheusmoreira wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fungibility means coins are indistinguishable from each other. Bitcoin does not have this property: the origin of each coin can be traced all the way back to its minting. Governments cannot block transactions but they can stop people from accepting the coins. Money that can't be spent is worthless.

Yes and in some cases that matters. But for most practical purposes, two coins are interchangeable. As in,if you're sending me bitcoin, I don't really care which coin in the wallet you send me. I could use your argument to say U.S cash is not fungible because each bill has a serial number. And the government occasionally tracks bills with a given number.

It's a bit different. Yes it's true that, for instance, if a pallet of USD with sequential serial numbers went missing, the FBI would probably knock on your door if you tried to put some of them in the bank. But as far as I know, if those dollars made it into circulation and you obtained them by legal means, it doesn't become illegal for you to spend them.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#169

Post by fny » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:12 AM UTC

ALittleLight wrote: post #55

fny wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a question: how many people do you know that buy crypto intend to spend it? You know, use it like currency? Or are they all just HODLing in the hopes that some other buyer will come along who believes it will become a medium of exchange? In my view, it's not a currency until people stop speculating and start using it like a currency. So yes, it's a collectible with ridiculously high transaction costs that make…

Just recently I was looking into making bets on polymarket - a prediction market that uses Ethereum and advertises zero fees. I happened to have a bit of eth from a while back but I was dismayed to find out that the transfer fee, seemingly to move any amount of eth into polymarket, was something like a flat 50 dollar equivalent. I just wanted to bet with a few hundred dollars, and having to spend 50 of that just to g…

I actually think gets fixed with ETH2. I'm actually a bigger believer in DeFi than BTC.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#170

Post by fny » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:48 AM UTC

beambot wrote: post #125

fny wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a question: how many people do you know that buy crypto intend to spend it? You know, use it like currency? Or are they all just HODLing in the hopes that some other buyer will come along who believes it will become a medium of exchange? In my view, it's not a currency until people stop speculating and start using it like a currency. So yes, it's a collectible with ridiculously high transaction costs that make…

Most people I know keep less than 3 months of their net worth in currency. The vast majority of their net worth is placed in real estate (largely, their primary residence), stocks, or ETFs. You can make a case about net-present value of future dividends, but the S&P dividend yield is 1.4% -- i.e. less than inflation. So quite literally, every asset they have as a store of wealth is "just HODLing in the hopes that som…

Primary residence has utility. Additional properties typically have a real cash flow. Stocks have price appreciation typically due to higher current and projected earnings, dividends, and buybacks, and yes they are somewhat inflation resistant since they also have limited supply. This makes for average returns of 10% plus dividends.

Bitcoin is a collectible. It is very much like gold, which has a far longer history and similarly high transaction costs. Gold, in my view, is also a collectable, and it's frequently advertised as such. (Just look at the gold coin ads and compare to BTC.)

Controversial view: fiat currencies are also a collectible. The difference being it's universally accepted tender, its government enforced, you're taxed in it, transaction costs are cheap, and insanely fast (moving money can be a pain). This is what makes fiat a proper currency. Also, while we like to make fun of central banks for money printer go brr, there's real value in the stability they provide. The Great Depression was a disaster because of the lack of monetary response, and banks of the world have learned since.

Also, there are heavy incentives for governments to drive use of their currencies, and there's a LOT of competition from governments to dethrone USD. China, for one, is trying to internationalize the renmimbi and dethrone USD in its sphere of influence. Do you really think they're going to give BTC the space to thrive?

Now, let me be clear, my view on crypto is nuanced--I'm very exited about DeFi and ETH2, but my longterm view on BTC is a bit sober.