Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

protocol.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 238 posts

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#161

Post by jeffbee »

These contractors should be preparing for another line of work anyway, since Google has been working for years on making their data center equipment completely hands-off with robots swapping out the machines and parts. Recently Joe Kava said in a public interview:

"As far as robotics, our hyperscale data centers are more like warehouses and most of the processes require a robot to navigate to a specific location to perform a task. Some of these technologies are in development right now – things like robot navigation, computer vision, motion planning and device tooling for what the robot will employ to do that operation… These have advanced exponentially over the last few years..."

There are job postings on Google's site right now for technical program managers to "Work with Roboticists, Control Engineers and Hardware Lab staff to lead the concept, planning, and development of Data Center Automation System programs with an end-to-end responsibility". In the near future they will still need the skilled trades for power, water, and air, but it's clear that they'll ultimately get rid of them, too.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#162

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

RHSeeger wrote: post #70
dcolkitt wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. For me, and probably many on this board, the biggest risk is "works-for-hire". Under US law, contractors have strong legal protections of their own intellectual protection. Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I don't really care about healthcare of unemployment…

> Forcing freelancers into W-2 status is just another example of the government screwing people over "for their own good". It's the government screwing _some_ people over for the good of everyone else, where it's presumed that "good of everyone else" is worth more to society than what is lost by those that get screwed over by it. At least, that's generally the intent.

There's no need to screw these people over - simply more exactly specify the policy to address the actual issue.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#163

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #137
syshum wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should be very clear, I oppose government mandated lock downs.

What do you think about defence spending?

We do entirely too much of it. A decently sized and survivable nuclear counter-strike force to be unleashed on anyone who attacks our nation is sufficient.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#164

Post by thethethethe »

plank_time wrote: post #129
thethethethe wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, it sounds as though these people want to be treated fairly and with humanity. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that businesses in our society treat people as investments and give opportunities for upward mobility, not fire them every two years and pay them half as much as their counterparts who do the same job but wear a different color badge. I work for Google, opinions are my own.

How are they not being treated with humanity? They started with no skills or experience and were trained from scratch. How many jobs train on the job? Paid a good wage in an easy job and given a job for 2 years. Is that not humane and fair? How much of your salary are you willing to give up so that these people get their job security?

Every job requires some amount of on the job training. FTEs of all levels at Google are practically useless for at least 6 months after they join, often requiring hours of training and 1-1s. It's pretty standard.

Yeah I agree that it sounds like a good deal until they fire you after two years and don't allow you to move up like they used to. These terminations are arbitrary, unnecessary, and legitimely harmful to people's lives, so no I don't think it's fair or humane.

I don't see why their initial skill level when they were first hired really matters here, people deserve to have job security based on current performance regardless of their initial conditions.

I don't see why I need to give up any of my salary for these people have job security. I'm sure a small portion of the funds allocated to stock buybacks should do. And, for the record, I already give 1% of my total comp to the union, which was created to protect people in situations like these

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#165

Post by rtkwe »

geodel wrote: post #119
rtkwe wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People taking a deal doesn’t mean it’s not exploitative, it just means it’s enough of an improvement (or the downsides of not taking it are bad enough) [0] that people take the deal. Indentured servitude was for some a willingly taken deal but that doesn’t mean it’s something we should bring back as a common, endorsed arrangement... [0] In the US not working is a shitty way to live.

> or the downsides of not taking it are bad enough Crucial point is are the bad enough or worse than taking a deal. I'd say we should shut up and work to create better deal for workers , instead of just telling people that "you do not know you are so exploited". To me it is no better than telling people "Just be lucky" or "Just be rich"

I hear this a lot as if the groups and people talking about exploitative work situations aren't also pushing for things that would make these situations less exploitative and to make the consequences of not working less dire through socialized health care or similar programs... That's tough to do in the US system for a number of reasons so one thing that probably has to happen before the legislative solutions can happen is to get more people to realize they're being taken advantage of. (At the very least it should make it easier to address!)

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#166

Post by thethethethe »

username90 wrote: post #120
thethethethe wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, it sounds as though these people want to be treated fairly and with humanity. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that businesses in our society treat people as investments and give opportunities for upward mobility, not fire them every two years and pay them half as much as their counterparts who do the same job but wear a different color badge. I work for Google, opinions are my own.

You are right it is unfair. So now Google decides to hire everyone and pay everyone the same $12 an hour + full time benefits. That would make everyone happy, no?

If I am understanding you correctly, this seems like a strawman. You don't need to equalize everyone's pay to make the material lives of these data center workers better, nobody asked for that anyways. People are simply asking to be treated the same as the people who do the same work but have a different colored badge, and not to be fired every two years. It doesn't really seem like that much to ask for

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#167

Post by glsdfgkjsklfj »

This fake headcount doesn't work only on lowest tier 1 jobs.

Internationally Google et all hides headcount from shareholders by employing the entire office (sales, engineering, etc) as contractors in the exact same terms described in the article, but under the foreign country terms (which always have better terms for the worker than the US)

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#168

Post by thethethethe »

plank_time wrote: post #127
advisedwang wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the article - they aren't complaining about pay, they are complaining about job security. They are doing work that is going to be needed for the foreseeable future but can only work 2 years before they have to leave (for a period).

They are low value workers. They don’t get job security. That’s the reality of it. They are replaceable with people with no experience. They have to understand that. There’s no job security to waiters either or Uber drivers. Just because they work in a datacenter doesn’t mean they deserve more money for a low value job. If they want a full time job, they need to elevate themselves. Educate yourself, get a degree, fin…

Why do you have so little compassion for people? Just because a person has "low value" skills doesn't mean we _have_ to treat them like they are disposable. These "low skill" jobs are critical to the function of society and the people that do them deserve respect, security, and acknowledgment.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#169

Post by Aunche »

lowercased wrote: post #154
syshum wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when you go to find a Plumber, Auto Mechanic, Roofer, etc you look at the amount of money you can "afford" than pay exactly that? so If a plumber says he can fix my sink for $150 but I cna "afford" to pay $500 I should pay $500?

Are you also actively working with other people/companies who might hire those same people to put caps on what they might get paid, or indeed to negotiate hiring them at all? Google/apple/etc have enormous sway in some areas re: hiring/referrals/etc, and engaged in 'antipoaching' stuff that prevented free movement of labor (imo). The plumber/mechanic analogies fall down when you look at the size and actions of google…

During the time of the anti-poaching agreements, Apple and Google had close to an oligopsony on high-end tech labor. There are too many employers of low-skill labor for collusion to accomplish anything.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#170

Post by pkaye »

coryking wrote: post #128
ahelwer wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mostly right, although the way I see it is this: there are a few subclasses of independent contractor. At the top are people with high hourly rates who have niche skillsets and want to work on their own with minimal involvement in the company with which they have a contract. In the middle are the perma-temps involved in the Microsoft lawsuit or at H-1B shops, usually fairly well-paid but lacking many benefits…

> health insurance and how it's tied to employment Without getting too political, I really feel like untying health insurance from employment would transform the labor market and encourage far more entrepreneurial endeavors. People could take more risks if they didn't have to worry about losing healthcare coverage. There are obvious tradeoffs involved, but I really never see this aspect considered in public debate. M…

Isn't a lot of Europe like this? Do they have more entrepreneurial endeavors than the US?
Post reply on HN