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Why the United States has the best research universities

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Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#161

Post by birdyrooster »

wahern wrote: post #156
birdyrooster wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh oh oh I have one: a peculiar form of chattel slavery considered more brutal and unforgiving than that of Rome.

The American South was built on slavery, but slavery was a limiting factor in the economic development of the United States and particularly the South. It's why the industrial revolution happened in the North. And as the largest market for Southern cotton Europe was at least as much a benefactor of American Slavery. Some people spin this narrative because they think it secures African-Americans' place as legitimate a…

> slavery was a limiting factor

I would love a source for this

>Also, don't forget that slavery was endemic to European colonialism in the Americas. AFAIU, only a fraction (less than 10%?) of African slaves ended up in the United States. Brazil alone, for example, may have received upwards of 40%. If slavery were the secret sauce to economic development, the U.S. should be one of the poorest countries in the Americas.

I don't follow this, why would they be the poorest? Is this based on your previous claim that slavery being a limiting factor?

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#162

Post by wahern »

birdyrooster wrote: post #161
wahern wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American South was built on slavery, but slavery was a limiting factor in the economic development of the United States and particularly the South. It's why the industrial revolution happened in the North. And as the largest market for Southern cotton Europe was at least as much a benefactor of American Slavery. Some people spin this narrative because they think it secures African-Americans' place as legitimate a…

> slavery was a limiting factor I would love a source for this >Also, don't forget that slavery was endemic to European colonialism in the Americas. AFAIU, only a fraction (less than 10%?) of African slaves ended up in the United States. Brazil alone, for example, may have received upwards of 40%. If slavery were the secret sauce to economic development, the U.S. should be one of the poorest countries in the Americas…

> Recent research argues that among former New World colonies a nation’s past dependence on slave labor was important for its subsequent economic development (Engerman and Sokoloff, 1997, 2002). It is argued that specialization in plantation agriculture, with its use of slave labor, caused economic inequality, which concentrated power in the hands of a small elite, adversely affecting the development of domestic institutions needed for sustained economic growth. I test for these relationships looking across former New World economies and across states and counties within the U.S. The data shows that slave use is negatively correlated with subsequent economic development. However, there is no evidence that this relationship is driven by large scale plantation slavery, or that the relationship works through slavery’s effect on economic inequality.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/nunn/files/domestic_slaver...

I haven't actually read much research in this area in particular. Frankly, it just seems intuitive to me based on all the literature I have read about American political, legal, and industrial development; the development of other countries, such as in SE Asia; and especially works related to the so-called "resource curse": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#163

Post by forgotmypw17 »

I think two important factors make U.S. unique:

1) The variety of people from different backgrounds cross-pollinating with each other. This takes places in other countries, but not nearly to the same degree.

2) An open and unregimented society, relatively speaking, allows for more cross-pollination with other layers of society. For example, how many other countries make it possible to study under the "Steve Jobs program"?

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#164

Post by throwawaygh »

User23 wrote: post #11
aborsy wrote: post #2

Research focus in US and EU seems a bit different. Europe produces a lot of high quality science. Research in US is on the other hand increasingly application-focused (something that EU is not very good at). This is my observation as a former researcher who has experience in both regions; I don’t have references. It’s partly driven by culture, and economic system. The strong public system in Europe supports longer te…

I've noticed EU CS grads are on average much stronger scientifically than US ones. With notable exceptions, the typical US undergraduate curriculum is more of a trade school. That’s fine of course, but definitely not the skillset needed for novel research or even properly applying recent research. Edit: Apparently I’ve struck a nerve. But this has been my experience working and hiring at two of the FAANGs. The teams…

I think a less pot-stirring way of saying this is to just point out that most US colleges/universities are closer to Fachhochschulen than Universitäten.

The difference between the two regions is IMO mostly overstated. Especially in CS. Both the US and EU have institutions with trade school-style CS bachelors/masters as well as truly top research institutions with real Computer Science bachelors/masters degrees. Saying much more than that isn't particularly helpful.

NB: I'm willing to bet that most of the "hard core science" teams in Europe have Americans over-represented relative to other teams in the company. This says more about how immigration systems work than anything else.

Also NB: being on "hard core science" teams isn't the best way to maximize income/career trajectory at FAANGs, and isn't even the most secure... remember a buncha years back when Microsoft killed off its bay area research lab?

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#165

Post by birdyrooster »

wahern wrote: post #162
birdyrooster wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slavery was a limiting factor I would love a source for this >Also, don't forget that slavery was endemic to European colonialism in the Americas. AFAIU, only a fraction (less than 10%?) of African slaves ended up in the United States. Brazil alone, for example, may have received upwards of 40%. If slavery were the secret sauce to economic development, the U.S. should be one of the poorest countries in the Americas…

> Recent research argues that among former New World colonies a nation’s past dependence on slave labor was important for its subsequent economic development (Engerman and Sokoloff, 1997, 2002). It is argued that specialization in plantation agriculture, with its use of slave labor, caused economic inequality, which concentrated power in the hands of a small elite, adversely affecting the development of domestic inst…

> This is done by examining whether there is evidence that countries that relied most heavily on slave use in the late 18th and early 19th centuries are poorer today.

How would this ever apply to the country with the largest economy by the turn of the 20th century?

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#166

Post by mlon_eusk »

oneplane wrote: post #131
ur-whale wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> can anyone point me to high profile megacap EU startups Don't waste your time looking, there are none or almost none. EU is simply not geared (anymore) for this type of endeavor to succeed: - finance infrastructure for this is non-existent (VCs are a joke in Europe, both in terms of size and in terms of the type of stuff they invest in) - risk-taking is simply not a cultural value anymore - administrative burdens (…

As someone from the EU, some of your points seem very true, but it's also simply a matter of many people not really having the same goals and requirements. There is no true independence in any society, apart from autocracy, and externalities always exist. There doesn't seem to be much value attributed to 'having a lot of money' etc, for a lot of people, having a fulfilling job, family and life is enough, and having t…

chasing TC was never the goal, prometheus > zeus

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#167

Post by 908B64B197 »

foepys wrote: post #4
aborsy wrote: post #2

Research focus in US and EU seems a bit different. Europe produces a lot of high quality science. Research in US is on the other hand increasingly application-focused (something that EU is not very good at). This is my observation as a former researcher who has experience in both regions; I don’t have references. It’s partly driven by culture, and economic system. The strong public system in Europe supports longer te…

At least in Germany a lot of research isn't being done at universities but at dedicated research institutes. Quite a few PhD students are working part time at uni and part time at one of the Fraunhofer Institutes or at Forschungszentrum Jülich. Another European example is CERN in Switzerland. This model just doesn't conform with all those research university rankings.

I wonder how much it contributes.

American Visiting Researchers at CERN, since they remain attached to their Universities, probably count toward their institution's ranking. But a full time researcher at CERN doesn't.

The JPL at Caltech and the Lincoln Laboratory at MIT are the opposite of that. They do, what could be considered mostly government research but I'm sure 100% of their citation count goes toward their respective institutions.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#168

Post by ungamedplayer »

wahern wrote: post #130
rossdavidh wrote: post #117

So, the ascent of U.S. universities to high status on a worldwide scale, happened in the first half of the 20th century really. Why? Well, because Europe was tearing itself apart in two world wars, and the U.S. sat out the first half of both of those, while receiving a lot of talent fleeing those wars. If you have the money, and the former top-of-the-heap has bombed their wealth into rubble, it doesn't require any ma…

It wasn't just the U.S. receiving that talent. Latin America, particularly Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile also saw 10s of millions of European immigrants.[1] Germans, Italians, Jews, Poles, etc, as well as Japanese and Chinese. Canada and Australia also saw significant migration. So the mere fact of the emigration of European talent doesn't quite answer the question. The role of European conflict driving emigra…

What made you think it was schools that took advantage of the situation ?

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#169

Post by angry_octet »

philzook wrote: post #157
codethief wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I hope I won't offend anyone here but there's a story that seems quite appropriate: When I was still living in the US, an acquaintance of mine once asked me, "So don't you think the United States are the best country in the world?" I was absolutely baffled. Putting aside for a moment that the US clearly did not rank "best" on so many scales, the question (to me, as a European) didn't even make much sense in the…

America invented many things, but we did not invent nationalism. It is natural to feel good things about a place where all your loved ones live and has a language and culture that is familiar to you. You really think it makes no sense to Europeans to think of their country as "the best"? It seems to some degree to be the character of most right wing parties I'm aware of that this is a part of their stance. But also,…

Definitely the best in their category. No one makes better American Coffee than Americans.

What I find interesting is that Americans are most proud of their culture at home, and when overseas that tends to be moderated. Whereas some immigrants always say their native country has 'the best X'. I'm thinking in particular about some Greek immigrants I've known, but then in the next breath they'll tell you about corruption back home.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#170

Post by [deleted] »

ska wrote: post #53
systemvoltage wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know why anyone should believe you. Can you source some concrete facts if any? This is a provocative comment ready to start flame wars. Please tell specifics and not paint broad brushstrokes to flame the fires. I’m sorry to flag your comment. Edit: One source we can look at the awards given to fundamental research. They’re overwhelmingly US-based. Fields, Nobel, Turing, etc. This contradicts the popular gener…

> They’re overwhelmingly US-based. Fields, Nobel, Turing, etc This isn't really clear. For example, EU has generated about twice the fields medal recipients as the US. That's reasonable in terms of roughly equivalent populations, but does beg the question that if someone grows up in Europe, trains and spends early career in Europe, but ends up a professor in USA before being given a Nobel prize, where do you count th…

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