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RMS addresses the free software community

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161–170 of 537 posts

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#161
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the emacs virgin thing if it really was aimed directly at a young woman in the audience is not much better than sexual harassment.

I was shocked reading your comment - how could you know about an incident that I thought only 2-3 people witnessed, an event where I was present but few other people were? Then I googled it, and it turns out that you are likely referring to a larger, different event where I was not present. It seems like he did this a lot, then? He definitely harassed a young woman at an event I organized, and did a 1-1 version of th…

Thanks for the detail

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#162
post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

Not to mention how badly he mismanaged the paid staff of the FSF which prompted them to unionize: https://twitter.com/paulnivin/status/1377079987950395393 I think, if anything, this is the strongest argument for why he should not be in a leadership position at the FSF.

"Did not treat employees well" is a great reason for someone to not be a boss, but unfortunately that's not why he's demonized.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#163
post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

one thing that bothers me in the context of cancel culture is that it seems people put the equal sign between the work/art someone produces and their ideas outside of that area.

Having wrong or plain stupid ideas does not mean you should die and all the [brilliant] work you are doing should go to waste.

the bigger the target you attack, the better. right? what is your contribution to this world?

they are not even close to the same thing. look, RMS is a weirdo - everyone understands this. But most people are not even close to his level. This exceptionality has it’s drawbacks and its cost. Do you really think the FSF wants to deal with all this? What is the thought process behind reinstating RMS?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#164

That's great, but the problem seems to be RMS's disruption of development activities. This doesn't change that. For example: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00... Imagine taking the time to publicly explain to an out-of-practice dev why some technical feature is needed, then being accused of a "pressure campaign" that requires the out-of-practice dev to consult privately, "with people I have…

[deleted]

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#165
post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

A bunch of companies joined together and announced they didn't like Stallman. Tellingly, the left out the list of grievances, so we can just endlessly debate which 'issue' is the 'real' issue. > FSF under Stallman kinda lost to open source anyway and hasn't really done anything besides virtue signal to others about how pure and ethical they are Then why do you care at all about the FSF in the first place? It sounds l…

> Then why do you care at all about the FSF in the first place? It sounds like you're here just to spread rumors and opinions in this case.

I can't answer for the OP but it's clear that the FSF was a in a leadership position within the software world in the 1980s and 1990s. That position has slipped precipitously despite the increasing importance of the GNU software they developed in every aspect of modern computing. RMS, both in his behavior while representing the FSF at conferences and his (lack of) understanding of the modern computing environment[1], was/is very clearly part of the reason for that decline. I think the principles the FSF stands for are good and important, however without an organization to promote them they will continue to wither in the modern age and bringing back RMS will not help to reverse that trend.

[1] How can a man who spent years refusing to use normal web browsers and insisting on having web pages e-mailed to him possibly be positioned to develop policies to promote the principles of Free Software within the framework of the modern web?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#166
post #17

Unrelated but, I'm curious: how does RMS pay the bills? The FSF board seat is a volunteer position and he no longer works for MIT. Is he paid as a consultant or something?

He won that MacArthur award that came with money. He also owns a home in Cambridge that he rents out. Maybe social security as well.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#167
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children. GCC plugins were a stallman thing, LLVM was even offered to the FSF at one point IIRC. Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so?

> Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so? While you may not care about it, GPLv3.

That was sort of the opposite of competent:

- Because it was a new license, it necessarily resulted in license fragmentation, which is an ongoing headache for the free software community. It's worth doing if there's a serious need that outweighs the costs and you can guide the community towards dropping the old license, but....

- The Linux kernel had always been GPLv2 only and remained GPLv2-only, which meant that the most interesting GPL-licensed code on TiVos and similar devices was not subject to GPLv3.

- Embedded devices like TiVos generally want a small userspace. The most popular choice was Busybox, which announced that it was GPLv2-only.

- Also, Busybox turned out to be a reasonably straightforward product to replace, which hurt the ongoing aims of GPL enforcement - including regular old GPLv2 enforcement about simply getting source code at all: https://lwn.net/Articles/478249/

- The FSF moved its own projects to GPLv3 only, but that scared the largest surviving commercial UNIX vendor (Apple) enough that they remained on GPLv2-only versions, and eventually started sponsoring the development of permissively-licensed competitors to even reasonably difficult products to replace, such as LLVM and its ecosystem (lldb etc.) instead of GCC and its ecosystem, which are now technically on par with GCC, if not much more advanced. (Historically, one of the FSF's biggest successes at making inroads in the proprietary software world was getting Steve Jobs to use GCC and release the Objective-C frontend for it!)

- Because the FSF couldn't guide enough other major projects towards GPLv3-only, many brand-new GPL'd software projects continue to use "GPLv2 or later" to this day to work around license fragmentation (i.e. so they can share code with other GPLv2+ projects), meaning any additional strictness of GPLv3 is irrelevant in enforcement.

- Of the major issues around software freedom and digital autonomy today, approximately zero of them are TiVoization - and, as described above, that's not because GPLv3 was wildly successful in combating the threat, it's because it turned out not to be that pressing of a problem.

There is basically no leverage in GPLv3. Just about everything you'd want to do with free software today, you can do with GPLv2 or permissively-licensed works.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#168
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children. GCC plugins were a stallman thing, LLVM was even offered to the FSF at one point IIRC. Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so?

> Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children. This is how disparaging internet rumors are spread. You know someone that allegedly experienced this. Do you know them well enough to know the account is factual, or maybe they were just piling on because they had a bad experience with him and decided to frame him in this negative way because it was the 'cool' thing to do at the time? Quit proliferating…

I speak to them maybe every day and I have absolutely no reason to doubt him.

I would just say what the project was but he's basically the sole maintainer of the GNU side of it.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#169

I think message is genuine, and sympathize with his stand. His work on free software has been invaluable and shaped the software world in a good way. To paint the whole person as a "bad guy" ("terrible person") in the context of the latest developments always seemed off to me. However, usually apologies in this context backfire. Everything that you say about this can and will be used against you. This has happened to…

He didn’t apologize authentically. He might not be capable of it. And... if he did it doesn’t at all follow that his apology would be accepted. It is neither timely, nor adequately sincere and it doesn’t indicate that he is taking appropriate actions to atone. This statement is as self countered and RMS centering as his actions were. I suspect he isn’t capable of change without intervention and a lot of therapy, neither of which have been indicated here. Note: I’ve directly witnessed and dealt with RMS’s awful behavior towards women twice in my career.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#170
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children. GCC plugins were a stallman thing, LLVM was even offered to the FSF at one point IIRC. Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so?

> Someone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children. I know pretty much nothing about this Stallman person, does he actually dislike people with children?

I don't know whether he dislikes people with children, but the sin here is reproducing and thus hurting the planet or something like that.

Apparently this argument only subsided because it was noted that rms is not vegetarian

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