> Conventional wisdom holds that passive trading is the rational investing strategy. That isn't conventional wisdom. It's not someone's opinion. It's statistically proven reality. Whether you're an individual trader or a billionaire hedge fund manager, active strategies lose out to passive ones in the long run. > has catalyzed a lean-in mindset around investing, particularly among Gen Z. And it will burn them, just l…
While you’re right about the majority, there are pockets of young people partaking in sophisticated strategies, and doing quite well. The people in the discord server that I belong to are all using stops to max their downside and get out quick if their instinct proves wrong. After several months on paternity leave, it became clear that greatest barriers to active trading are money and time, like most things. If you’r…
“Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
161–170 of 327 posts
Re: “Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
#162Risky activities tend to hurt more investors than they help, and lead to a small number of big winners and many losers. You can't just increase risk and increase reward for everyone.
Regarding the predicament Gen Z is in, just remember that the older generations - one of which is very large - will need to sell their assets at some point. I know it's hard to hear, "Be patient" when you are young and have already been patient, but demographics is working against asset values in the next twenty years or so.
Re: “Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
#163> Conventional wisdom holds that passive trading is the rational investing strategy. That isn't conventional wisdom. It's not someone's opinion. It's statistically proven reality. Whether you're an individual trader or a billionaire hedge fund manager, active strategies lose out to passive ones in the long run. > has catalyzed a lean-in mindset around investing, particularly among Gen Z. And it will burn them, just l…
"statistically proven reality" is an oxymoron - past outperformance of passive funds (statistics) are no guarantee of future returns (reality). Some of the math surrounding the derivation of the weakest forms of EMT also relies on the assumption that everyone has access to the same information, which is patently false in the world we live in. Even retail traders sometimes have an information edge (e.g. working at a b…
https://web.stanford.edu/~wfsharpe/art/active/active.htm
That doesn't mean there haven't been long-running active strategies that have worked. But those have overperformed by grabbing returns from other actives underperforming, not the passives.
Re: “Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
Without being totally dismissive of every person who has contributed to the platforms you mention...99.99% of the stuff on YouTube is terrible, and most of the stuff written about GME was total nonsense. It is difficult to convey this because, in the end, you have no idea either so you don't know whether there is useful stuff on YouTube or if I am just talking nonsense too...but it is so bad, and it gives the mislead…
Why is Wealthfront so bad? Their fees don’t make them cheap, is that it?
One of the big advantages that savers have today are open platforms (there was a time when fund managers ran their own platforms), low dealing costs, low spreads, and ETFs. All that investors need to do is just work out the asset allocation themselves and they will save huge amounts. And I would guess 95% of people reading this are able to do it.
Just to be clear, we are looking for a least bad situation. Asset allocation is very complex, there is no way most investors can get an amazing result themselves but what most investors don't know is that WealthFront have zero chance too. So the aim is to equal what they do without their mad fees (I have no idea how they charge so much, marketing? I don't know, I know small advisers that were profitable charging lower fees...it makes no sense).
Re: “Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
#165> Conventional wisdom holds that passive trading is the rational investing strategy. That isn't conventional wisdom. It's not someone's opinion. It's statistically proven reality. Whether you're an individual trader or a billionaire hedge fund manager, active strategies lose out to passive ones in the long run. > has catalyzed a lean-in mindset around investing, particularly among Gen Z. And it will burn them, just l…
This is true historically. But at certain times it's a complete no-brainer to enter the market or not. For instance consider post Covid at around March/April 2020. Stocks have dropped 20-30%. It took Moderna 2-3 days to develop a vaccine, is a 20% drop in e.g. Apple justified, or is it simply free money?
Re: “Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
"statistically proven reality" is an oxymoron - past outperformance of passive funds (statistics) are no guarantee of future returns (reality). Some of the math surrounding the derivation of the weakest forms of EMT also relies on the assumption that everyone has access to the same information, which is patently false in the world we live in. Even retail traders sometimes have an information edge (e.g. working at a b…
I don’t think anyone would argue with the statement “if you possess an information advantage then you’re better off actively trading”. It’s mostly in the situation where you don’t have an information advantage that passive investing outperforms (on average). The fun part is that everyone _thinks_ they have an information advantage, but fewer really do.
Re: “Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
Roaring Kitty’s posts that kicked off the GME craze had some very thoughtful analysis. And recently I watched some videos about dividend investing on YouTube that I would consider reasonable investment advice. I agree that there is a lot of gambling and excessive risk taking going on. And I myself stick to a 3 ETF portfolio because I like the simplicity. But to call it almost entirely just gambling I think is missing…
> I watched some videos about dividend investing on YouTube that I would consider reasonable investment advice. Do you happen to have those links?
As an example, I did do a quick search just now on YouTube and a guy named Charlie Chang came up. [1]
I haven't actually watched any of his videos before, but I took a look through his introductory video and it all looks like pretty sound advice to me. He also does monthly videos where he recommends specific stock picks, and his fundamentals-based approached seemed totally reasonable to me. This is the type of content I had in mind when I said there are reasonable videos being published on YouTube.
Re: “Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
#168Then came an uncomfortable realization. There are multiple indices. Which one should you aim to beat and why? This question stuck with me and I didn't manage to resolve it at the time.
Then I learned about the argument that active investors cannot beat passive investors because on average these two groups will hold the same stocks in the same proportions. The active investors are just trading stock back and forth and incurring fees in the process. This seemed logical and convincing at the time.
A few years later I was trying to think on a theorethical level, how can active investors stand a chance against passive investors, if on average they hold the same things, and the passive investors don't incur fees? What I came up with was this: Stocks enter and exit indices. So even index funds have to do the occasional trade. If active investors as a group buy a stock before it enters an index, they can gain a leg up on the passive investors.
Then I thought of something even worse. A bad actor could "poison" the index by founding companies. Trade a few stocks back and forth with a buddy to establish a high market cap. If it makes it into the index, the index funds have to buy from you.*
Another thing that an index fund has to do is buy and sell when people enter and exit the fund, and when it does it has to trade with active investors. If active investors can predict in/outflows into the index-fund they can beat its cap-weighted**performance.
Recently I've been thinking about the inclusion criteria for the index. This kind of ties in with all of the previous threads I mentioned and unifies them. Every index has a bunch of inclusion criteria, this is completely necessary and inescapable or else the poison problem becomes serious. Whichever index you choose, there will be some good companies inside and some bad companies outside. Thus there is no right index to choose. And here is another opportunity for active investors as a group, trying to beat the inclusion criteria of the index. Avoiding the poison better than the index funds. And picking good companies that didn't make it inside, and of course investments that are outside the index because it's in a different region, or because they are not stock at all.
* This is a simple example. You could imagine a much more sophisticated scheme, with many different actors trading stocks back and forth, and mixing real companies in with the duds.
** An example to help the imagination: An index fund falls in value, almost everyone exit the fund. It recovers, people come back. Even though the fund is +-0, the average investor has lost money.
Re: “Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
#169The only issue I take with this article is their seemingly blase take on the risky investing behavior of Gen Z. Sure, if that's the lay of the land then use it to your advantage. But it seems a bit predatory. Risky activities tend to hurt more investors than they help, and lead to a small number of big winners and many losers. You can't just increase risk and increase reward for everyone. Regarding the predicament Ge…
As someone who is about half way towards retirement, how is it best to work with this?
My future retirement income seems to be mostly dependant on having the right selection of investments for my pension account to grow in time for when I stop working. It's currently split between a few low cost, broad indexes. But if we expect asset values to go down as older generations sell off, am I going to see this pension pot fail to meet what I need it to in order to cover my retirement.
My pension advisor just seems to blindly follow the script of 'passive beats active', and expects 5% annual return. Which I just go along with, mostly because I have no idea what else to do. Am I being too pessimistic when I really can't see 5% return being likely.
How do I go about making sure my retirement is provided for. It kind of annoys me I have to seemingly be constantly figuring out the market situation to make decisions on what's best. Why do I need to be a stock market expert to manage my pension. What I'd much rather do is pay for a future pension more like an insurance plan. I pay monthly now, and some experts who know what they are doing worry about the investment strategy, and I just get a fixed pension payment.
Re: “Buy and Hold” No More: The Resurgence of Active Trading
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you cherry pick the US S&P (over international, and over small cap), I’m allowed to cherry pick hedge funds. Many funds consistently outperform the S&P by 2-3X over 30-40 years. Minimum investment, $5-10M, of course. Buy and hold is the best option for those under USD $10 million net worth, but you must acknowledge there are semi-closed funds/prop trading firms that consistently beat the market.
Yes, just like there are individual stocks that beat the market. How do you pick them?
The same way you picked your passive index fund: look at 20-30+ years of data.
Unfortunately, VTI, VT, VOO all underperform the top hedge funds, when evaluated over 20 years (risk adjusted return, downside deviation, and absolute return). I’d go further back but VTI was created in 2001 whereas the hedge funds were created in 1980/1990.