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Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

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Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever you have a discontinuation of your conscious experience (for example, when you go to sleep and wake up), you can view that as one person disappearing, and a copy waking up in the morning. In fact, unless you believe in a transcendent soul as the seat of consciousness, it must be equivalent. Only if our conscious experience truly stops during sleep (which as far as I know isn't actually backed up - there's…

The sleep example was a bad idea, I only complicated things with it. In fact, my claim is that there is that the continuous nature of consciousness is an illusion in general. Just because I remember when I started writing this comment doesn't mean I am the same thing that started writing it. From one moment to another, everything is different, or at least there are no clear boundaries. Am I the same thing as the feri…

>In fact, my claim is that there is that the continuous nature of consciousness is an illusion in general.

I'm not sure what that even means. How can an experience be an illusion? It seems to me that at point everything just breaks apart.

>Just because I remember when I started writing this comment doesn't mean I am the same thing that started writing it.

The point isn't that you remember it (false memories are a thing), but that you're experiencing continuity from moment to moment. If you think this continuity doesn't exist, how could you care about anything at all?

>From one moment to another, everything is different, or at least there are no clear boundaries

How is everything different? On the contrary, I'd say that actually most things seem to change only marginally and as time periods approach the infinitesimal, so do the changes. And I don't understand what you mean by clear boundaries. Why would there be any? Isn't lacking clear boundaries what actually makes it continuous.

>Am I the same thing as the feritilzed egg? Present-me and past-me are just as related as copy1 and copy2 with a hypothetical perfect copy machine.

If you reject continuity, sure, but otherwise the key difference is that there's continuity between the objects.

Let me ask you, why do you care about your future 'self'? That is, why do you not just maximize _your_ (current) pleasure, rather than caring about the experience of someone that you seem to think isn't actually yourself. At the very least, it seems like from your point of view there is no reason to place more importance on your future self than any other future person.

>And even if 'whatever makes up experience is baked into the physical', that doesn't give a path to a time-stable identity. In fact, it makes that even less plausible, as it implies that every atom leaving your body, every cell that dies, and certainly something like losing a hand or getting a transplant, fundamentally changes your psyche at the physical level.

'time-stable' identity doesn't mean that it must be forever frozen, but rather that it's continuous in the time dimension and happens slowly enough that the subject can experience this. You can replace parts of the 'soul material', without identity being lost as long.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#162

Its the old Greek "Ship of Theseus" argument, but in biology. If you replace every part of a person with a transplant over several years, who is it that remains? And if you do it one afternoon, does that change anything?

Well, except we forget that the _normal_ scenario for living systems is to constantly be replacing everything. Over the course of your life, my understanding is some cells are replaced every few days, and some live many years, but if you live a long life, very few will be intact from your early adulthood to your twilight years.

I think the distinguishing factor that people want to latch onto is that if "identity" applies to recognizable configurations or organization of parts, is replacing large chunks qualitatively different from replacing small ones (e.g. blood donation)?

Maybe another interesting comparison is virus recombination or reassortment -- where meaningfully large, recognizable chunks are put together in a new arrangement. We recognize this process as giving rise to a new strain, but you could just as easily view it as a successor to one strain, but with modifications.

Or changes among institutions or groups: we think the United States is a country with a ~245 year history, though its geography and population changed a lot, with sudden expansions.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A colleague went on once about Star Trek transporters: what if they worked by "scanning" a person, sent that data over the airwaves, then, made a perfect copy of somewhere else (sourcing new molecules from wherever) — would this copy believe they were the original? He went on: suppose you kill the original — did you "transport" the person? Star Trek creeps me out a little now.

I'm off the opinion that transporting is pointless from a selfish point of view: your duplicate will get to Jupiter or wherever, and think they're you, but your consciousness will stop so you will never get to experience it. I don't know what experiment you could do to prove this either way.

I think the rational way to look at it is this: your whole purpose is to set conditions for your future self's success. For example, if you agree to be put under anaesthesia or an induced coma, you are agreeing to die so that your future self will live.

When you step into the teleporter, there will actually be two future selves created: one will stay in the teleporter chamber, the other will go to the destination. So to decide if you should do it your not, you need to weigh the benefits to 3 people: (1) your future self if you don't go into the teleporter; (2) your future self who arrives at the destination; (3) your future self who stays back anyway, so who is very similar to (1). If (2) is much happier than (1) and (3) is not significantly less happy than (1), you should rationally do it. If (3) would be significantly less happy, there is also the option of considering having them (painlessly) killed in the process.

Either way, the person making the decision will not get to experience either (1), (2), or (3)'s experiences.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#164
post #147
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And season 1 at that.

You’d need to manufacture bodies first, since the ones we have aren’t supposed to work beyond 80-90 years, on average.

If memories and by extension consciousness can be transplanted, will mushy bodies matter? We already have capabilities to manufacture robots.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#165
post #147
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And season 1 at that.

You’d need to manufacture bodies first, since the ones we have aren’t supposed to work beyond 80-90 years, on average.

The whole concept is that you can transfer your stack (a digital version of your consciousness) between bodies. The show does touch on the issues of bodies, rich people can just buy them. Anyone else essentially has to wait for whatever body becomes available.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#166
post #107

I think the patient would spend the rest of their life in physical rehabilitation. They would have to train their brain to remap every muscle movement. Coordination would be a nightmare and a major fall risk (very common way to die in a hospital). Then there is the whole digestive system, it is hard to believe it runs completely independently, and if that isn’t working right, it would be a horrible death. As fascinat…

You see this all the time in robotics, where you can do a sort of “brain transplant” by taking the controller of one robot and installing it into another “identical” body. I use quotes here because there are enough differences in the physical machines that the transplanted controller will not perform as well without a significant recalibration effort.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#168
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no known process in physics that could give meaning to that identity. I am arguing that we don't know enough about consciousness or about the universe to claim there is no difference between the original and the copy. So saying "there is no known process in physics" doesn't undermine my position. Here is one possibility, perhaps a bit silly, but if we are in a simulated universe, not that I think this is l…

Sure, there is always the possibility of new physics being discovered. But we know A LOT about the universe, and the fact that we can explain so much about how things work, from the atomic to the galactic level, without any kind of a time-stable identity being necessary does suggest that we shouldn't hold our breath hoping for one to be discovered. Also note, a hash or a mind in a higher-level universe is exactly a t…

"know a lot" and "ignorance" resemble each other in that there are few unsolved puzzles in view.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the mind extended to other parts of the body, I'd expect there to be tons of evidence for it, but there seems to be none. Like, with the brain we know that the mind is deeply linked to it because it's just very obvious. Brain damage heavily impacts cognition, people lose memories, their personalities change, they lose the capacity to feel certain things or certain concepts - we even have some idea of damaging what…

While I agree with you, I would add that most glands add a wrinkle to what you are saying. Hormones significantly impact personality and reactions, and their secretion is not happening in the brain. Now, the direction of causation is of course debatable, especially in a healthy person, but do you believe that replacing ovaries with testicles (assuming we were able to do it) would have no impact on the mind of the per…

While the secretion may not happen in the brain, they affect the hormone receptors in the brain and that's where I think all the 'mind' changes come from. We know that e.g. people who undergo hormone replacement as part of sex reassignment will actually have noticeable brain structure changes.

If there was some other influence causing changes to the mind, I don't know of it. It doesn't seem like the hormone creating organs are itself is part of the mind, as just taking the hormones seems to cause the same effects. So what else could it be? I guess it's theoretically possible that some systems like the blood stream itself are part of the mind - but there's nothing that indicates this, so I think it's pretty unlikely.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#170
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expand with evidence to justify and further explain what you mean?

We all know there’s no real evidence, even though parent’s ideas have been floating around for millennia.

Evidence requires observation. Observation in this case requires a strenuous experiment (see 10,000 years of religious/mystic technology for "seeing far" for more about that).

It is similar to high-energy physics in this way.

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