A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#161

Post by nharada » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

k33n wrote: post #127

ojnabieoot wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who quit a graduate program: - it looks really really really bad on your CV to not finish a graduate degree. I dropped out for health reasons with an A+ GPA and still have to delicately explain what happened to interviewers. It looks worse than just having a masters degree. - “just one more year of misery and then your career prospects will increase dramatically” is a very powerful argument and not just a…

> it looks really really really bad on your CV to not finish a graduate degree. That's something people who have no real world experience say. For one thing, nobody is forcing you to put any information on your CV. Lastly, only the lowest of the low judge such things so harshly that they won't even interview you.

This is one of those things that's hard to see until you're out though. Combined with the fact that inside academia there definitely is a bias against those who don't finish the program ("they couldn't hack it") this perspective is relatively rare for those who are in it, especially those without prior industry experience.

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#162

Post by andi999 » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

pbzcnepu wrote: post #154

andi999 wrote: post #135

The article is all over the place with a lot of innuendo. I mean I do not want to play detective, I want the case served on a silver platter

for more details than you possibly want go here: https://pbzcnepu.net/isca/timeline.html though it is more about the ACM/IEEE side of things rather than what was going on in Florida. Many researchers seemed to know there was weird stuff going on with peer-review at ISCA, but if you asked the researchers they'd just shrug and more or less say something to the effect of "don't hate the player, hate the game"

I read it and the thing doesn't make sense: so the author is complaining that the victim knew the names of the reviewers? Who cares? What does this have to do with anything? Also there seems to be almost no relation to the conference with the suicide except for the pressure his supervisor put on him.

The other thing from the web page is murky, they basically found breached confidential info on the victims laptop. Ok, this is more serious, but again, this is seems to me also a total sideshow;what am I missing here.

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#163

Post by nitrogen » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

tobmlt wrote: post #33

xenihn wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now, I have my dream job, my dream location, my own damn house, and my family. -Whole thing feels like a dream I might wake up from if I am not careful... and I feel totally weighed down when it comes to speaking up in a way I would have never countenanced a few years ago. I'm not at this point yet, but reading this makes me wonder why any employer would ever prefer younger employees with nothing tying them down, fo…

Oh yes, some (many?) employers do prefer those with more to loose. Immigration rules tie right into this as well (of course).

Oh yes, some (many?) employers do prefer those with more to loose.

Years ago I actually had a hiring manager tell me "all of our guys have families" and later "we're really looking for people who want that stability". Direct discrimination against single people. Fortunately I did not get that job, and ended up much better off elsewhere.

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#164

Post by coldtea » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

8note wrote: post #153

greenonions wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an interpretation, that's just pointing out that people who do not have a strong conception of themselves or have self-imposed limits on their behavior according to their moral system have no reason not to blindly pursue enhancing their material wealth.

They don't have a reason to pursue that material wealth either

How so? Material wealth gives all kinds of tangible benefits as control, pleasure, influence, access, etc -- even better health and surely better healthcare.

Whereas, what does being moral/good give (to the invididual practicing it, not to the community) except a feel-good feeling (and that only on those who care for it)?

(I'm in favor of being moral, just point their point of view).

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#165

Post by coldtea » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #132

coldtea wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul? It will profit them, well, the whole world. Duh! (Yeah, I know what the Christian sentiment means. But it requires the belief, if not in soul, in some trancedental good, for people to care about "loss of soul" over "gaining the world". Which, alas, we don't have as much...)

>But it requires the belief, if not in soul, in some trancedental good The soul is your conscience, you're comfortability with yourself. The judge is your peers, family and ultimately yourself.

Well, the soul (as in "ultimately yourself") might not give a fuck about morality and goodness, and judge you on failing or not to get what you want. What then?

As for family and friends, people find that those like you just fine if:

(a) you can fake being good succesfully (while still being bad and doing bad things for your benefit - common with politicians, CEO doing "charity" with corruption and cruelty on the side, etc.)

(b) you win material wealth and so they depend on kissing your ass

(c) they are actually treated well and kindly by you (while you're still fine to fuck over everybody else for profit - king of like in mob - their families don't dislike them because they're mobs)

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#166

Post by s1artibartfast » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

boublepop wrote: post #134

lixtra wrote: post #39

From the suicide note: > Considering that this will have an impact on my career in the future and my reputation in the area of Computer Architecture, my future life will be worse than death and I will be totally in a dilemma. Maybe we also need to change academic culture to allow people to confess academic fraud, receive punishment and than be forgiven and continue academic careers. Currently once you started, there…

> Maybe we also need to change academic culture to allow people to confess academic fraud, receive punishment and than be forgiven and continue academic careers. Are you suggesting we forgive the professor who’s pressure and influence seems to have cause the phd students suicide? If anything I think we need to stand firm on the harsh one direction only nature of academic misconduct, and simply provide better training…

> There should never be any doubt in a students or professors mind that academic misconduct when discovered will be an end to their academic carrier.

This is a big part of the reason for the suicide. Reread the quote with this in mind

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#167

Post by rdtwo » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #128

woofie11 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to MIT. MIT has procedures involving NDAs and non-disparage agreements to cover up academic fraud. Academic fraud widespread, at least in the departments I worked with, and the Institute can apply *a lot* of pressure to get people to shut up. Except for anonymous web forums, I did. I'm sorry, but this isn't letting the individuals off the hook, any more than accusing the KKK of being racist isn't letting a par…

Any worldly institution that operates this way will implode. Establishment academia has lost a great deal of clout, deservedly so. It's going to collapse sooner or later because people aren't intoxicated by the mirage of establishment academia like they used to be. Eventually, new schools and institutions will emerge that will better conform with human nature and human needs that will replace these obsolete and faile…

Maybe it will happen but it will likely take a couple human lifetimes to get there

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#168

Post by sojournerc » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #164

8note wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have a reason to pursue that material wealth either

How so? Material wealth gives all kinds of tangible benefits as control, pleasure, influence, access, etc -- even better health and surely better healthcare. Whereas, what does being moral/good give (to the invididual practicing it, not to the community) except a feel-good feeling (and that only on those who care for it)? (I'm in favor of being moral, just point their point of view).

I tend to think of morality as an emergent property of successful social structures.

It's a necessary common value system that underlies peaceful cooperation. In this sense it's an evolutionary advantage to treat each other morally and have a shared ethic. That includes not exploiting others for personal gain.

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#169

Post by techbio » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

feralimal wrote: post #61

tobmlt wrote: post #19

I want to express sympathies in a particular way: When I had a job I didn’t want, in a city i didn’t want, no kids, no wife, and prospects abounding, it was easy to speak truth to power. I did it, and I was right technically, businesswise, and morally. What a win...(?) Now, I have my dream job, my dream location, my own damn house, and my family. -Whole thing feels like a dream I might wake up from if I am not carefu…

"I was right technically, businesswise, and morally." ... and in third place, morality. And now lost in the distance. I'm not a Christian, but this is worth considering by everyone: "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul? Or what will a man give as an exchange for his soul?"

If you interpret a grammar (in this case, a list of dimensions for evaluating one's choices) in the terms of another grammar (in your interpretation, the ranking order of horse race or other competition) you impose a structure on the conclusion and what logically follows, that is orthogonal or irrelevant to the original statement.

There is no reason I see that placing morals last in that list places it below the technical or business dimensions, and assuming good intentions would seem to require that they were ordered that way because morality is in fact the bottom line or last word, rather than tacked on as some also ran, in itself requiring technical and business success to be actualized, while in fact standing as the higher goal.

The most charitably I can view your response is that you discount technique and business due to some prevalence of corruption in them but do not likewise discount moralism.

What shall it profit a man to lose the whole world? Immorality itself often follows failures to thrive, ie cheating to get an edge in one way or another.

Re: A Dishonest, Indifferent, and Toxic Culture

#170

Post by izgzhen » Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

jdthedisciple wrote: post #79

I never understand why phd students who are going through mental torture don't just quit their phd program. I mean ... noone can force you to finish a shi*y phd right? Why not just drop out and pursue sth that actually fulfills you? With your Masters degree / diploma in your pocket and the vast theoretical knowledge you have all doors standjng eide open for you, don't you?

Similar to the reason why someone is married the wrong one but just can't get himself/herself to divorce. Certain types of people tend to be very averse of sunk cost even if they are well-aware that they will lose more if keep going. This is very unfortunate though.

I found that academically excellent people are especially easy to get in this type of trap -- maybe because that "never give up" and "overcome the difficulties" rather than giving up is engrained by the process.