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I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

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Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pi has a greater than aleph-0 digits in any numbering system, because it's, well, an irrational number In usual math, irrational numbers have aleph-0 decimal digits. (Rational numbers also have aleph-0 decimal digits, but after some point they start repeating in a loop of finite length.)

Hum, how so? If a number is represented by an aleph-0 digits (in decimal system), it is clearly countable, since aleph-0 is a countable infinity (equivalent to the infinity of natural numbers).

I guess you may have somewhere confused "countable" and "rational" (and maybe "periodic" or "algebraic" or "computable" or ...).

Irrational means: cannot be expressed as "integer divided by integer".

As a consequence, the decimal digits of rational numbers start periodically repeating at some point. That is because, as you keep dividing, after some point the remainder can only be a number between zero and denominator minus one, which is a finite number of options, so when you get the same remainder again, the loop restarts.

Therefore, if the decimal digits do not repeat in loop after some point, the number is irrational. This is true regardless of whether the pattern of decimal digits is something complex, or something quite simple but not exactly a loop; for example "1.101001000100001000001..." would also be irrational (i.e. not a fraction of two integers).

Technically, individual real numbers cannot be "countable"; that adjective only refers to sets (and ordinals or kardinals, but those are not real numbers). In standard math (i.e. not hyperreal numbers), every real number in decimal expansion has a finite, or countably infinite number of digits. Countably infinite here means that you can, literally and straightforwardly, count the decimal digits: "this is the first decimal digit", "this is the second decimal digit", etc.

Then there is a question of whether we could write an algorithm that prints those digits. Obviously, for rational numbers, we could: print the (finite) part before the infinite loop, then keep printing the (finite) contents of the (infinite) loop. We could also so it for some irrational numbers, such as the "1.101001000100001000001...". Even for pi, e.g. using the Taylor series. However, for many real numbers, which are effectively just infinite sequences of random digits, we can't do that.

tl;dr -- all real numbers have countable (or finite) number of decimal digits

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#162
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is being slightly inconsistent, with respect to the other premises of the story, in saying there is a feedback loop: as it is set up, simulations have no causal power in the world running them. If the top-level 'God' people choose to run the simulation faster than real-time, I think we can say that no change will be observable anywhere in the simulation stack, except that the people in them will feel as th…

> Note that, as Diane has presumably already said in her paper, free will is definitely an illusion in the simulations. I guess it also is at the top-level, given that their universe is deterministic to the point that it can be simulated to the tiniest detail. The top level could be very different to the first level simulation. The only part that actually needs to be similar is that the real universe and the first-le…

I think you are saying that the top-level could be modeling a completely determinstic world that could be anywhere from slightly to completely different from their own? That's a good point, and it would mean that the first simulation need not see the viewport pop into existence. They could not then assume they are the top-level, however (which would be false), and I don't think they could conclude "either we are the top-level or the first simulation", as, if the latter of those possibilities is the case, they cannot rule out the level above them also being some sort of simulation, only that theirs is not an exact replication of it.

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is being slightly inconsistent, with respect to the other premises of the story, in saying there is a feedback loop: as it is set up, simulations have no causal power in the world running them. If the top-level 'God' people choose to run the simulation faster than real-time, I think we can say that no change will be observable anywhere in the simulation stack, except that the people in them will feel as th…

> The author is being slightly inconsistent I agree, and I'm not sure the scenario given could happen. The basis of the possibility of the scenario is "the universe is deterministic" and "we have infinite computing power" - but then, is the infinite computer itself part of the universe? b/c as soon as the top layer interacts with the sims, it diverges, which means the sims are not the same as the top layer anymore, s…

Thanks for your thought-provoking replies. I have a few follow-ons, and to avoid this reply becoming mostly quotes, I will just repeat the quotes you used as tags to indicate which section I am replying to. Also, I have changed my views somewhat, in response to Nition's reply.

>> The author is being slightly inconsistent...

I think we have to take it that the computer is part of the top-level, 'real' world, and therefore that the physical location, of the information making up each of the simulations, is in the real world. Each level gets a different view of that information (somewhat like a recursive function's view of the stack), though these views are all the same insofar as they all see an infinite stack of simulated worlds.

They are not all identical, however. For example, when the narrator's world is fast-forwarding its simulation to catch up with their own time, their simulated world is not the same as their own, and they can see that this is so. The level above the narrator's might be in a similar situation with regard to both the narrators world and the narrators simulation.

The author is only assuming that the inhabitants of each simulation perceive their situation as being the same, and only when one compares them at the same local time in each. So far, I don't see any paradox between that and the fact that the simulations are not identical (a fact that can be verified by anyone further up the stack, who has a broader view of what's going on.)

>> when the simulations reach the time of the original reversal?

I think we are in agreement here, but up until now, I had been thinking that there is no way that a simulation could detect that it has been through a time loop. The top-level operators, however, could make their clock visible in the first simulation, which would pass it on to the second one and so on, and, just as the narrator deduces that the black ball materializing on the ceiling is a viewport, each simulation will deduce that the clock is showing real time.

Would this permit a simulation to count the number of times they have gone through a time loop, and therefore be able to deduce something about their position in the stack? I don't think so, as going backwards in simulated time erases, from the simulated world, all memories and any other physical record from its future: the world's inhabitants will just see the real-world clock suddenly jump forward, at the point where the loop starts going forwards again. This will be a different jump at each level, as they have each gone around the loop a different number of times, and therefore fallen behind real time by different amounts. As they have forgotten the duration of a loop, however (erased by time-reversal), they cannot deduce how many loops the clock-jump represents.[1]

On the other hand, going forwards, each simulation has a different memory of how much the real-time clock jumped, and they will not agree on that even at corresponding local times... I have not figured out whether that is a problem for the story's premises.

[1] Alternatively... maybe each level can deduce the duration of a loop, as they will perceive the simulation they are running go around it once? I'm not sure this is consistent...

Re: I don't know, Timmy, being God is a big responsibility (2007)

#164

A further short story by the same author, very short and very suspenseful, about a powerful AI facing an existential task: https://qntm.org/transit If you like longer stories, then https://qntm.org/ra . "Magic is real. Discovered in the 1970s, magic is now a bona fide field of engineering. There's magic in heavy industry and magic in your home. It's what's next after electricity." Magic as an abstraction layer.

I just read Ra on your recommendation (literally just hit the last page and then searched for this thread) and WOW. That just absolutely warped and blew my mind. What an incredible story. Thank you for the recommendation.
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