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SDL Moves to GitHub

discourse.libsdl.org

161–170 of 270 posts

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#161
post #77
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why engage with a company that have proven themselves to be an enemy of Free Software? I'm not buying their "how do you do, fellow Linux users" facade.

So, to ask again, what is a specific way that choosing Github and Microsoft can hurt a software project in the future? I'm not asking in bad faith here. If there are such dangerous I would very much like to know them.

Changing pricing or terms of service.. don't be stupid.

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder why they did not pick GitLab since it is significantly better for FOSS ideals and has the same niceness of GitHub

Sorry but GitLab is utterly horrendous from a developer's perspective compared to GitHub. It's massive enterprise bloatware (like most Atlassian products for example) that is nigh unusable without an entire team of people to manage it. My company uses it and it causes me problems almost every other day. Things that should "just work" never do. Further when something gets reported to GitLab they automatically close ol…

GitLab team member here. We have Code Owners [1] and recently introduced Merge Request Reviewers [2]. Our team is working on the author-review handoff [3] as part of their work to improve the overall merge request reviewer experience [4]. I'm sure they would appreciate any detailed feedback you could share on the epics linked below.

1 - https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/code_owners.html#int...

2 - https://about.gitlab.com/releases/2020/12/22/gitlab-13-7-rel...

3 - https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/-/epics/5074

4 - https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/-/epics/1823

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or for worse, this is nothing new. It is a symptom of the fact that the FSF and other FOSS organizations have displayed a fantastic failure of technical leadership for over 3 decades. The political leadership has not been bad, but if you go back and dig through the history of open source you will see that there have been multiple repeated failures by the supposed thought leaders to provide the equivalent l…

It's particularly interesting, because the rise of GNU is because it was an overall better set of tools than what Unix vendors shipped (HP-UX, IBM AIX, Sun OS, SGi Irix...). The age of web changed all of that. Instead of being stuck on your computer with whatever tools you could obtain for it, you could now access centrally-maintained, quality webservices. The FSF realized the freedom risk that centrally-maintained s…

Stallman's (and the FSF's) view on services is that it's like paying a plumber. The plumber isn't violating any of your freedoms by using non-free tools in their repair work, but it is unfortunate. This is a pragmatic view, because Stallman needed to grapple with continuing riding public transportation, even as they relied on non-free software, so an arbitrary line was drawn in the sand, one that barely made sense in the 80s and only continued to become more bizarre as computers became more and more networked.

This line has very bizarre consequences: FSF-supported hardware prefers closed-source firmware to be fused into ROM rather than upgradeble, the theory being that manufacturers shouldn't have more freedoms than the user. My favorite story was a laptop recommended by the FSF went from being "free" to "non-free" because an engineer found an undocumented protocol to upload new firmware to memory that the FSF thought was fused shut. These are the weird results that emerge when extrapolating extreme fundamentalist social policies far beyond their breaking point.

The FSF and Stallman do not care about the AGPL that much, they are far more worried about non-free software running on your own machine, like non-free JavaScript. Otherwise, Stallman couldn't ethically ride the T.

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW Stallman's stance was always that freedom is more important than technical excellence and that he'd rather use and promote a technically inferior product that respected users' freedoms than one that was technically superior but came with shackles.

Which is one of the reason's Stallman's ideas are fundamentally flawed as if there's a better product available even if it's only free as in beer, people will use it over the worse one, from the end user's perspective.

In the worldview of Stallman, your argument is analogous to saying that advocating for democracy is flawed because if an authoritarian regime or slave society provides a better product, people will choose it over worse democratic ones.

To Stallman, your counter-argument is a non-sequitur. His goal is maximizing user freedom. UX may be one dimension of user freedom, but at best it's secondary to certain prerequisite freedoms, such as the freedom to modify code so you can independently improve it, perhaps by improving UX for yourself and your community.

Many people sympathetic to Stallman, but more utilitarian, might argue that in the long term, user freedom is necessary for achieving optimal utility (e.g. UX, etc). And getting there might require short-term sacrifices in superficial aspects like UX.

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#165
post #57

"So in moving it to GitHub, we’re finding that a lot of things are just nicer because a large paid staff of engineers is working on it every day. And I grew up during the heydey of the Free Software Foundation, so I know this is a trap, but I’m tired and don’t have the energy to be a server admin for something that’s held together with scotch tape and prayers when I’m really supposed to be writing OpenGL code." This…

Personally I find this far more worrisome signal of the health of foss ecosystem than the quibbles between elastic and amazon. To me the idea of software "by hackers for hackers" and scratching your own itch has always been one of the key attractions in FOSS ecosystem, but somehow now our itches seem to have outgrown our ability to scratch then. Doing almost anything yourself feels impractical these days. This is als…

When you're a kid, tinkering is exciting. When you turn 30, you just want your software and tools to work. Janitoring your computer is not fun when it's in the way of your actual day job.

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#166
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could use the free version or self-host it.

Exactly. You have new solutions like GitLab, Gitea and Docker which can automate this stuff for you and it is yours and you own everything. Didn't stop RedoxOS, wireguard and GNOME from self-hosting.

The point is that they didn't want to deal with self-hosting anymore. I think he makes some valid points in the article re: owning all of your own infrastructure - there is something to be said for that.

But it is so much more than just Git hosting.

> "It’s not just Bugzilla. It’s the wiki, the mailing lists, the quaint little Mercurial web interface. The little open source thing that we rely on but no one is working on and probably has security holes in it. It’s all janky, and it causes developer friction. It causes it for Sam and I, and we’re old Unix command line cowboys, so for those that expect computers to treat them like computers do in 2021–with slick UIs and without cronjobs that occasionally fail until Ryan rolls along to restart a service over ssh–it was becoming untenable."

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#167
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the threat is some number of years down the line they may have to go back to paying to host and maintain the infrastructure themselves again? I'd take that deal.

Tough luck for anyone who had linked to the project/issues on github dot com instead of sdl dot org.

It's probable that in that instance they could just pay for GitHub datacenter or whatever Microsoft chooses to name the new evil plan. But Microsoft has little reason to turn evil again (open-source projects generally have little money and won't spend it on source control/issues when there's a free competitor), as we're at a crossroads where nobody needs Microsoft software anymore (iOS/Android/Mac/Chrome OS for personal computing, Google/Amazon for cloud), so they need the advertising for their cloud. Therefore, $500K per year or thereabouts to host all of the open-source code on GitHub and provide some amount of CI minutes is worth it to get people to ask for GitHub/Azure at work.

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doing almost anything yourself feels impractical these days. I would argue this is only the case because we've created an intentional social and skill gap in the industry between server administration and operations work and software development. My experiences, especially more recently, have been shocking in how little the average software developer knows about /very basic/ server administration. I don't have a fu…

I don't agree. I spent a significant amount of time playing around with servers and never developed "mastery". I think that server administration has gotten more complex and the tools haven't changed much to help. A simple example is setting up an HTTPS/TLS/SSL endpoint. In the past, you just ran the HTTP server and you were off. Now there's a whole load of extra ceremony to setup a CA and sign your own cert or downl…

If anything TLS has gotten easier since Lets Encrypt came along. You just install one of the clients for it, configure a domain and periodic renewal and you're done.

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#169
post #149

It seems libsdl2 does not support framebuffer anymore, which is critical for embedded devices(no gpu or 3D acceleration i.e. opengl needed there)

It supports kmscon, maybe if works in software.

Re: SDL Moves to GitHub

#170
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I find this far more worrisome signal of the health of foss ecosystem than the quibbles between elastic and amazon. To me the idea of software "by hackers for hackers" and scratching your own itch has always been one of the key attractions in FOSS ecosystem, but somehow now our itches seem to have outgrown our ability to scratch then. Doing almost anything yourself feels impractical these days. This is als…

> Doing almost anything yourself feels impractical these days. I would argue this is only the case because we've created an intentional social and skill gap in the industry between server administration and operations work and software development. My experiences, especially more recently, have been shocking in how little the average software developer knows about /very basic/ server administration. I don't have a fu…

I fully agree about the skills gap, but I think the reason behind it is more that server administration has come to feel unapproachable, with an air of "better leave that to the experts", along the same lines as "don't roll your own crypto" (but less extreme) or how some people wouldn't dare run electrical wires in their homes.

Why run your own server, and keep it patched, and keep it secure, and configure the firewall, and all that stuff which spells doom if you get it wrong... when you can use some cheap or free service that does all the hard stuff for you?

I'm curious how much of this shift is purely because these tools really are better, or how much is due to an intentional marketing effort to make the DIY approach seem bad/unsafe/difficult/fraught with peril. I guess at some point it's a self-reinforcing flywheel. People think DIY is hard, so they actively avoid it, and tell their friends "running servers is hard, don't do that."

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