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An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

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Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#161

Post by RobertKerans »

bennyelv wrote: post #154
pjc50 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the way Premier League works, it's not really geographic any more. "Arsenal" is owned by an American, plays in a stadium named after the airline of the UAE, recruits its team from all over the world, and is named after the Royal arsenal that no longer exists. Names and history are important. That's why there has been such a fight over renaming US teams with racist names.

I don't think it's a simple as that, and you have to separate the ownership of the club and the makeup of the team from who makes up the bulk of the fans. The fans don't particularly care that it's owned by an american and sponsored by a UAE airline, because what matters is the coming together of the fans behind a common cause. The fans do typically come from the area around the stadium in North London. When you get…

Further to that, the fans care deeply if the owner/manager/players make efforts to become part of the fabric of the area, otherwise they won't care about them to any great degree (even if a player is world-class and delivers success, without integrating, they'll still be seen as mercenary). Fans, very much the same regardless of level: support is an identity very much tied to a specific place, and a tourist can't really fully participate in that.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#162

Post by credit_guy »

shimonabi wrote: post #2

The joke at that time was Serbs saying: "Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible."

It was based on a mistranslation though. In English these planes were never described as "invisible", it was always "stealth". Since other language don't have a separate word for "stealth", they became "invisible". A native English speaker would be a bit hard pressed to understand the humor of that joke.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#163

Post by jariel »

INTPenis wrote: post #156
jariel wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And in my view that was a relatively mild conflict compared to others like Israel and Palestine for example." Serbs and Croats were massacring each other, mass rape, torture, executions, quasi-genocide. It's far worse than anything in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict at least on that level.

You sound like you're from there. Because you're clearly over exaggerating. It's been pretty quiet down there for at least 20 years. You can literally walk over the border near Vukovar in some places without even seeing a border guard. In Palestine people have a giant wall and are forced to go through humiliating border checks just to get to work. And it's been going on for longer than I've been alive.

It was bad [1].

In WW2 there was straight up genocidal stuff, in 1990's there was ethnic cleansing. Torture houses, militias going door to door kicking people out, executing them. Some barbaric stuff rooted in a very long history.

It's almost 'neighbour v. neighbour' - not a quite war of 'highly organized national soldiers' vs. 'some other nation'.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#164

Post by necovek »

tim333 wrote: post #142
necovek wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the ultimate solution needs to come down from UN in setting a legal framework for parts of the country to secede. I.e. it's generally an economic interest for separatists rise to power, and I wonder if we could stymie that by making it legal for parts of countries to secede under a certain set of terms (paying "damages" to the parent country, obligating parent country to allow free travel and similar for a pr…

If you make it easy and legal you'd get stuff like Wall Street seceding from the US to pay less tax. A possible model for Israel like situations is both parts become part of some larger body like Eire and NI both joining the EU. I know that's changed now but it did quite a good job of stopping the troubles. Maybe something like the earlier EU were you get free trade and human rights courts but without the latter atte…

As I mentioned, that one is easiest to expect, and a seceding country would be paying a fee for 10 or 20 years that would pretty much cancel any tax savings.

After they are done, the formerly parent country could introduce visas for travel across the border, and as someone mentioned, all the income for people living outside the Wall Street would still be taxed by residency, as is the case today.

Of course, the rules would need to be carefully worked out, and it would disincentivise some but not others to secede (just like today). The goal should only be to avoid armed conflict in reaching the same state.

Basically, we all accept that killing someone is illegal if you disagree with them, but there's this sudden jump when countries declare war on each other and now it's ok to do exactly that.

Basically, it's double standards, and it should be a criminal act to declare war on anyone.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#165

Post by necovek »

enkid wrote: post #138
necovek wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the ultimate solution needs to come down from UN in setting a legal framework for parts of the country to secede. I.e. it's generally an economic interest for separatists rise to power, and I wonder if we could stymie that by making it legal for parts of countries to secede under a certain set of terms (paying "damages" to the parent country, obligating parent country to allow free travel and similar for a pr…

The UN purposefully doesn't involve itself in internal politics of its member states unless there is an clear reason to. Setting such a framework would be down right disastrous for some countries and would likely be ignored by many other countries that would be the countries that would need such a framework the most. It would also be unenforceable.

Anything the UN says is unenforceable if it does not come from the member states themselves.

My point was not to make UN the policeman, but to get countries to agree to change the founding principles of UN (which is exactly the sovereignity you mention). The cost involved should be big enough to discourage everyone and their uncle to claim a new state, obligations of signing all the UN resolutions and declarations should be present. Basically, I think it would discourage many smart people from wanting to separate in the first place: eg. if Catalonia decided to secede, they'd have to be willing to accept Barcelona to secede as well, and suddenly that is not as tempting economically.

FWIW, I am a Serbian myself, and the Serbian people have been at both ends of the bargain: they've stopped from seceding from Croatian and Bosnian territories for UN border reasons, but Kosovars are also not fully separated from Serbia because of UN ruled (though de facto both Bosnian Serbs and Kosovars have separate "states"). I am convinced that if such framework existed prior to 90s, we'd see much fewer wars (if any), since nationalists wouldn't have a way to rise to power. I don't even think we'd see much splitting up of Yugoslavia even, or at least not in any meaningful sense (maybe all states would have joined EU as independent states at the same time to make it EUgoslavia :).

I haven't worked this out in detail, and I am sure there's a bit of psychology to deal with too (people do need a bit of us vs them, which we are trying to substitute with sports), but I am sure that if we had a bunch of smart people on finding a way to make seccesion fair, we'd at least get a reduction of violent conflicts.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#166

Post by JetSpiegel »

zaik wrote: post #114
TimTheTinker wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, and agreed with that — organizations that transcend country boundaries are great, as long as they’re not vested with political power. Perhaps the OP was talking about sports teams in particular? Forming sports teams based on geographic area fits well, and gives people someone to root for without alienating other groups for what would amount to wrongfully discriminatory reasons in other contexts. But if geogra…

> organizations that transcend country boundaries are great, as long as they’re not vested with political power The EU is an organization that transcends countries and is vested with political power, and despite being constantly bashed by far-right parties in Europe, has built a single market in Europe and many new freedoms for it citizens, like the right to move to and work/study in other member states.

They selective enforce that political power, though.

Nearly expelled Greece for not bailing out the German banks, but Hungary can compulsively retire judges, expel universities, and close newspapers without even a slap in the wrist.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#167

Post by tekknik »

willyt wrote: post #144
tim333 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make it easy and legal you'd get stuff like Wall Street seceding from the US to pay less tax. A possible model for Israel like situations is both parts become part of some larger body like Eire and NI both joining the EU. I know that's changed now but it did quite a good job of stopping the troubles. Maybe something like the earlier EU were you get free trade and human rights courts but without the latter atte…

But they would have to pay their share towards the upkeep of NYC at least or there would be border checks on the subway bringing Wall Street to its knees as they run out of secretaries and cleaners who commute from distant suburbs. Many companies would be forced for practical reasons to relocate to Brooklyn or New Jersey. Basically like U.K. leaving the EU.

Stonk trading can happen on the internet. Is there even a floor anymore?

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#168

Post by tekknik »

necovek wrote: post #164
tim333 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make it easy and legal you'd get stuff like Wall Street seceding from the US to pay less tax. A possible model for Israel like situations is both parts become part of some larger body like Eire and NI both joining the EU. I know that's changed now but it did quite a good job of stopping the troubles. Maybe something like the earlier EU were you get free trade and human rights courts but without the latter atte…

As I mentioned, that one is easiest to expect, and a seceding country would be paying a fee for 10 or 20 years that would pretty much cancel any tax savings. After they are done, the formerly parent country could introduce visas for travel across the border, and as someone mentioned, all the income for people living outside the Wall Street would still be taxed by residency, as is the case today. Of course, the rules…

I get what you’re trying to do, but do you realize how much you’re trying to force your idea of taxation onto others?

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#169

Post by tekknik »

necovek wrote: post #129
crusty wrote: post #118

One aspect of this that lends itself to the type of "easy" reconciliation that makes us think avoiding war shouldn't be so hard, is that neither party here actually had a sustained interest in the other. Serbia didn't have years, let alone decades or centuries, of grievance against the USA, and vis versa. The same with the US and Vietnam, or Japan, or Germany, or just about every other war the US has gotten involved…

I think the ultimate solution needs to come down from UN in setting a legal framework for parts of the country to secede. I.e. it's generally an economic interest for separatists rise to power, and I wonder if we could stymie that by making it legal for parts of countries to secede under a certain set of terms (paying "damages" to the parent country, obligating parent country to allow free travel and similar for a pr…

But why the UN? Doesn’t this just create a one world gov?

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#170

Post by tekknik »

necovek wrote: post #165
enkid wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN purposefully doesn't involve itself in internal politics of its member states unless there is an clear reason to. Setting such a framework would be down right disastrous for some countries and would likely be ignored by many other countries that would be the countries that would need such a framework the most. It would also be unenforceable.

Anything the UN says is unenforceable if it does not come from the member states themselves. My point was not to make UN the policeman, but to get countries to agree to change the founding principles of UN (which is exactly the sovereignity you mention). The cost involved should be big enough to discourage everyone and their uncle to claim a new state, obligations of signing all the UN resolutions and declarations sh…

> My point was not to make UN the policeman, but to get countries to agree to change the founding principles of UN

No your point is to force your ideals onto others. Hence the overuse of the word “discourage”

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