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Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

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Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>. It's a place where jobs are hard to come by, so maybe Amazon offers something the desperate, the poor, and the struggling something they can't get elsewhere. If you make it illegal to provide bad jobs, those jobs will not be substituted one-for-one for good jobs. That's not how an economy works. You're only hurting low-skilled workers by mandating higher minimum work standards. Responding to below: Yes, every so-…

> If you make it illegal to provide bad jobs, those jobs will not be substituted one-for-one for good jobs. That's not how an economy works. I think this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how markets work. If you are a smart business, you don't charge what's "fair", you don't start by saying "I'm going to pay $X to my workers, so let's see how many I can hire with that money." Those are bad ways to run a busi…

>>The idea that Amazon is going to stop hiring workers if they get more pee breaks... that's just not how markets work. If Amazon could afford to let those workers go, it would have done it already.

They will hire fewer workers.. there will be fewer profitable business ventures when the cost of one of the inputs to production increases.

In some case, it's true that higher wages will reduce profits, instead of reducing the number of jobs available, but that is not a good thing.

High profit margins encourage greater investment.

Take N95 masks for instance. If there is a shortage, any one producing them will raise prices and earn a huge profit.

Now let's say a progressive politician is elected and decides that those profits should be reallocated to the workers producing the N95 masks, so imposes an industry-specific minimum wage for N95 mask creators. Now profit margins decline for producing N95 mask makers, and N95 mask maker employees earn more.

What's lost is the massive influx of investment capital that high profit margins would otherwise have elicited, that would have raised N95 mask supply, which would have made the masks more affordable and plentiful.

Price controls don't work to increase net welfare. They reduce social welfare for reasons Economics explains in depth. Prices are a collectively generated signal produced from a complex network of interlocking exchanges that are based on a vast array of localized calculations. They are the product of a super collective intelligence that tells us where economic resources should be allocated.

>>It's not just wrong because reality is more complicated and in practice the simplistic models don't always bare out

Basic supply and demand theory tells us that the minimum wage, to the extent that it has an effect, harms wage growth. In the absence of the ability to conduct controlled experiments to prove definitively its effect one way or another, we should opt to trust basic economy theory.

There are a bunch of outlier situations in which artificial price bounds might theoretically not create economic deadweight losses, but it's nowhere as simple as "the economy doesn't conform to a simplistic model therefore a price floor is good".

It's entirely possible for price controls to still create losses while the market is not perfectly competitive.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ll answer your question with a question, how do you measure productivity? What percentage of productivity is contributed by labor, and what percentage by capital? We’re going to need this number if we are to answer your question anyway. I personally don't really object to being paid the same as everyone who shares my job title and does substantially the same job as me, provided we're all making the same (and prop…

> From my perspective though, the main point that I wanted to raise with you was the first one, that no-one is being forced to join, and no-one is losing any right to negotiate individually, so why shouldn't the people who want to unionise be allowed to do so? Well I’m arguing that its not in some employees interest to unionize. I’m fine with people voluntarily agreeing to whatever, freedom of association and all. I…

I can definitely agree with that point of view - joining a union (or not) should be a free choice.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#163
post #18

Why is blatant union suppression like this even allowed?

I'm personally glad that Amazon are able to express this sentiment for all to see. That the only time they've ever supposedly cared about the spending power of the workers they employ concerns union membership dues should be quite telling. They're betting that unions are going to cost them money because they believe that high union membership will lead to better wages, costly improvements to working conditions or other costly responsibilities. There's no other conceivable reason for them to publish this trite because it is in their interest to pay as little as possible for as much productive power as possible. It's not at all in their interest that you could buy a fancy dinner for the money you'd spend on membership dues.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#164
post #93
post #31

Amazon recently opened up in Sweden. According to this (Danish) https://fagbladet3f.dk/artikel/svenske-amazon-arbejdere-faar... the workers are in an union.

I believe like 70% of all workers in Sweden are in an union. It's basically the same in Finland (I'm Finnish and in an union).

Yeah, and like 90% are covered by union agreements. Just culturally and legally a very different environment.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, they will lower prices and keep margins constant. This prevents competitors from moving in. I'm not sure what to say about this other than, no, they won't. If you're a publicly traded company, your investors want profit margins to go up, not stay the same. Unless you can convince them otherwise because you're growing -- but even then, they still want your profit margins to eventually rise. If you go into a busi…

> If you're a publicly traded company, your investors want profit margins to go up, not stay the same. No, they want their return to go up. They don’t care about the margin, they care about the total yield (growth + dividend). > Unless you can convince them otherwise because you're growing -- but even then, they still want your profit margins to eventually rise. No, you want your net profit to rise. You want your mar…

I agreed with everything you said, except this:

>>I think its well understood among people who are familiar with unions that increasing labor costs results in acceleration of an automation process that is already in progress.

Increased labor costs slow the rate at which the economy automates.

The rate of automation is almost indistinguishable from the rate of economic growth. Almost all economic growth comes from the labor-cost savings, and those in turn come from automation and trade-derived specialization.

When one of the major inputs to production, like labor, is subject to arbitrary government imposed price floors, it leads to economic deadweight losses that reduce economic output, and in turn reduce the volume of economic resources available to invest in new capital that automates production.

Automation increases per capita production, and with it, wages.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> higher performing workers Do you mean the ones that sit at their keyboards earning a multiple of the salaries of those who do the actual physical work necessary to serve customers. I often remind my colleagues that we are very lucky to have such easy and well paid jobs by asking the simple question, “how many bags of sand did you carry yesterday?”

While I agree that workers who do physical work do not earn enough, it's not OK to simplify the work that sysadmins, developers and other people do. I for one work for 7 days a week for ~8 weeks now, and just sat and watched a wall to relax yesterday night because my brain and body refused to do absolutely anything . Every work is exhausting when overdone or just done with sufficient care.

Great, now do the same thing but you have to lift boxes. And work in a dangerous environment. You will be exhausted but also in pain.

Office work is not comparable at all.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that workers who do physical work do not earn enough, it's not OK to simplify the work that sysadmins, developers and other people do. I for one work for 7 days a week for ~8 weeks now, and just sat and watched a wall to relax yesterday night because my brain and body refused to do absolutely anything . Every work is exhausting when overdone or just done with sufficient care.

Great, now do the same thing but you have to lift boxes. And work in a dangerous environment. You will be exhausted but also in pain. Office work is not comparable at all.

It can be. Some offices are hazardous (sick building syndrome, mold) on top of the problems associated with a sedentary lifestyle. Whereas some physical jobs are amazing (work outside, lots of breaks, stay in good shape because you’re moving a lot). It really depends on the specifics of the job.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that workers who do physical work do not earn enough, it's not OK to simplify the work that sysadmins, developers and other people do. I for one work for 7 days a week for ~8 weeks now, and just sat and watched a wall to relax yesterday night because my brain and body refused to do absolutely anything . Every work is exhausting when overdone or just done with sufficient care.

Great, now do the same thing but you have to lift boxes. And work in a dangerous environment. You will be exhausted but also in pain. Office work is not comparable at all.

> Great, now do the same thing but you have to lift boxes.

We install our own datacenter hardware. Hundreds of servers. Carrying. Mounting. Cabling. I'm no stranger to hard, manual work.

I feel tired, but I feel no pain. That's a different kind of being exhausted. Mental exhaustion cannot be compared with physical exhaustion. Both are hard, both are crippling, however one is not better than the other.

It's also very satisfying to install a new fleet and bring it up while drinking tea with muscle tingling all over your body.

Thank you.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#169
Doesn’t the existence of the website validate that Amazon considers the union to be favorable for workers and, therefore, unfavorable to them? Otherwise, why would Amazon care enough to create it? I doubt it was truly due to Amazon’s concern for the workers alone.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> higher performing workers Do you mean the ones that sit at their keyboards earning a multiple of the salaries of those who do the actual physical work necessary to serve customers. I often remind my colleagues that we are very lucky to have such easy and well paid jobs by asking the simple question, “how many bags of sand did you carry yesterday?”

While I agree that workers who do physical work do not earn enough, it's not OK to simplify the work that sysadmins, developers and other people do. I for one work for 7 days a week for ~8 weeks now, and just sat and watched a wall to relax yesterday night because my brain and body refused to do absolutely anything . Every work is exhausting when overdone or just done with sufficient care.

And a warehouse worker would have to work 7 to 10 times longer in their “hell” to earn what you made.
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