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Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

electronupdate.blogspot.com

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Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#161

Post by darepublic »

rubyfan wrote: post #138
HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

The stakes are so high for Amazon to tell the truth here. If they were lying then there would be outrage among users, media, competition, etc. I’ve dealt with many people from Amazon in my professional life and based on their handling of customer data I believe Amazon take seriously the trust customers place with them. Amazon believe the Alexa and Echo platform will grow their retail and service relationships with cu…

I'm honestly not sure what the public response would be. I'm inclined to believe the revelation that the microphone is always on would not effect bottom line too much. Though maybe if a good meme campaign materialized people would join in on the public flagellation. But I bet more on people appetite for a public lynching than sacrificing their own convenience for long term considerations

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#162

Post by verbify »

rubyfan wrote: post #138
HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

The stakes are so high for Amazon to tell the truth here. If they were lying then there would be outrage among users, media, competition, etc. I’ve dealt with many people from Amazon in my professional life and based on their handling of customer data I believe Amazon take seriously the trust customers place with them. Amazon believe the Alexa and Echo platform will grow their retail and service relationships with cu…

Couldn't they have implemented mute in software? There would be little outrage if they had (users don't care about the difference) but spy agencies (e.g. NSO Group) would have a backdoor.

The fact that they used a hardware switch means they did it the right way.

By contrast my Logitech camera has a light to show when the camera is running - but the light can be disabled via their software which makes me uncomfortable with fully trusting the light.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#163

Post by KraftKacke »

randomsearch wrote: post #134
KraftKacke wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's unfathomable to have such a device around. I even feel uncomfortable with my neighbor having one (which I _hear him talking to). I assume it's like reading the side effects of medication and think they are other people's problems somehow. How do people trade core privacy for setting the alarm or getting the weather report by voice command. I don't respect them. Same with off the shelf IP cameras in one's b…

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

Yes, phones do have microphones too. The were a confidentiality risk even before becoming mobile. You also have piping running through your house, which could be tapped, you don't even need microphones, and the EM field emitted by your monitor can be read across the street. So why even care? Why should I encrypt anything, if I can't even prove not living in an all powerful simulation?

Back on topic, it's not a phones intended purpose to snitch on you, they usually do not listen into the room, without extremely malicious manipulation, and more so you simply can not realistically avoid having a phone in your reach, today. If I were talking business I would probably leave the phone outside too, for that matter, and I don't trust cheap communication hardware, either.

In real life drawing analogies by principle doesn't make for a good argument, most of the time, as life is adaptation and compromise, not a path through a logical circuit.

Do you honestly not see an obvious difference between a phone and an Amazon wired device intended to record and remotely analyze what's happening in the room?

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#164

Post by SilasX »

HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

This. It's why it's so important for laptops to permit a physical slider to block the integrated camera. It is a low-cost, low tech way to verify that the camera is not picking up usable images.

The real problem is that we don't have something analogous for microphones. The best we could do is some kind of humming device that you could turn on near the sensor that would drown out any noises it might otherwise pick up (and also be unobtrusive).

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#165

Post by epanchin »

KraftKacke wrote: post #163
randomsearch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

Yes, phones do have microphones too. The were a confidentiality risk even before becoming mobile. You also have piping running through your house, which could be tapped, you don't even need microphones, and the EM field emitted by your monitor can be read across the street. So why even care? Why should I encrypt anything, if I can't even prove not living in an all powerful simulation? Back on topic, it's not a phones…

Why would a google phone be any less likely to be listening than a google home?

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#166

Post by BurningFrog »

HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

> But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities.

Isn't it also the most obvious thing?

To be confident something is true, you need to confirm it. How else would the universe and human perception work?

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#167

Post by ehnto »

xg15 wrote: post #145
HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

You're right, but how to do it otherwise? With the camera, there is at least the option of installing a mechanical shutter that can be easily seen (and understood) by users. With audio, I can't think of any similar solutions at the top of my head. Of course, technically, not even this hardwired circuit is complete proof that there is no trickery going on. If Amazon really wanted, they could simply hide a second mic a…

I think we are at a point with electronics and connectivity that trust is all consumers really have. Your average joe isn't going to think too hard about how they work, and they also lack the skills to assess it themselves.

It's not a problem without prior art though, and other industries have had to find solutions such as certifications, regulatory bodies etc. Think of medicine, food, vehicle saftey standards and the like. I'm not an electrical engineer but I can trust my fridge to draw what it says it will, because I know it's been through the regulatory processes to get to market and be stickered with the 4 star energy rating.

I think at this point we might need a privacy and ethics regulator for technology, with a certification program.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#168

Post by StavrosK »

ballenf wrote: post #147
randomsearch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

I think the issue is one of the consumer's intent: are you buying a phone with a bunch of extra capabilities or a microphone hooked to a data center around the world? And that explicit decision is what is jarring to people who value privacy. Of course they both have microphones hooked to data centers, but the Alexas/Echos are almost worthless without the microphone enabled. Many people I know have turned off listenin…

> I have a HomePod that I have to manually press the touch button on top for it to listen

What's the difference? You trust it not to listen without the button press, I trust it to not listen without the wake word. To think that the distinction is meaningful is wishful thinking.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#169

Post by fortran77 »

KraftKacke wrote: post #125
HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

To me it's unfathomable to have such a device around. I even feel uncomfortable with my neighbor having one (which I _hear him talking to). I assume it's like reading the side effects of medication and think they are other people's problems somehow. How do people trade core privacy for setting the alarm or getting the weather report by voice command. I don't respect them. Same with off the shelf IP cameras in one's b…

I take security seriously. I have separate networks for my smart devices that have no access to my secure home network. I stay current on all risks, and I'm a regular attendee of security conferences.

But I have Amazon smart speakers in every room (on their own network that can see the network my smart lights are on.) They're great. I don't worry about Amazon listening in.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#170

Post by AnHonestComment »

KraftKacke wrote: post #163
randomsearch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

Yes, phones do have microphones too. The were a confidentiality risk even before becoming mobile. You also have piping running through your house, which could be tapped, you don't even need microphones, and the EM field emitted by your monitor can be read across the street. So why even care? Why should I encrypt anything, if I can't even prove not living in an all powerful simulation? Back on topic, it's not a phones…

The only obvious difference I see is my Amazon device has a hardware mute/can be unplugged and my phone doesn’t have either option.
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