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Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

tosdr.org

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Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#161

Post by banana_giraffe »

lcall wrote: post #158
banana_giraffe wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I went into sing my Mortgage Loan, the officer pointed at the X's and said "sign here, here, and initial here, here, and here" I then turned to page one and started reading. The conversation that ensued, where they tried to get me to sign without "wasting their time" was amazing. I get I'm unusual for wanted to read what I'm signing, but I can't have been the only one. I do suspect I was one of the rare ones tha…

I do the same kinds of things, but sometimes it helps warn them in a friendly way before scheduling the appointment. :) Often, I try to request the papers etc in advance, to make it easier on all of us, then I can take my time, ask questions, etc.

As I said, it was a bizarre conversation. I did ask if I could reschedule if time was tight right now. I totally get it if they had an appointment, even something not work related, that I'm putting at risk.

They were having none of it. It's possible I just got a jerk.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#162

Post by lcall »

stunt wrote: post #8
gorgoiler wrote: post #6

If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…

Yes, as long as they make it a required step. It's your fault if you choose to not read it.

Too bad the parent was down-voted. IANAL but I think from other reading that it is correct at least in the USA. I think if one does not read & agree, it is dishonest to say you did.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#163

Post by lcall »

Uninen wrote: post #85

Are there any examples of minimal human-friendly Terms Of Service texts that one could use or adopt to their own projects?

I tried to make some for onemodel.org (in github, there is the file LICENSE, and CONTRIBUTING). But I did not have them reviewed by an attorney yet. But my offering is not an online service (yet); I have other thoughts stored away on that. But I've also read that attorneys can always find holes in things written by non-attorneys, so there's that.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#164

Post by lcall »

noname120 wrote: post #15

Previous discussions: – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15031020 (2017) – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9678357 (2015) – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8394144 (2014) – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5888393 (2013) – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4350907 (2012)

Thanks. Also it seems: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16885000 (2018)

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#165

Post by lcall »

mech422 wrote: post #86
CodeGlitch wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem arises especially when the document is written in legalese. I also feel like I'm not really qualified to understand these documents - they are generally written for people who have the appropriate qualifications. For example when buying a property in the UK, the soliciter will be the one parses the legal documents. It's crazy to think that normal people are expected to fully understand these, and it doesn…

I feel this is one of the major problems with most TOSs... You generally don't have a lawyer around to explain every TOS you come across, so people ignore them and hope for the best. Hmm - I wonder if there would be a niche for a website that explains specific, common TOSs in easy to understand terms?

https://tosdr.org/en/frontpage

https://www.thewindowsclub.com/summary-of-terms-and-conditio...

And elsewhere in this discussion is a list of prior such discussions that might mention others (you could Ctrl+F for my username here to find it, I replied to the list).

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#166

Post by lcall »

joekrill wrote: post #70
II2II wrote: post #18

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…

It's absolutely astounding to me how many folks blindly sign legal documents. Especially employment related. Whenever I've pushed back on an employment contract, NDA, or similar it's always met with sudden confusion - as though this has never happened before. In fairness, it's almost never met with negatively. But it shows that no one else has ever bothered to question it. And when I talk to colleagues I definitely g…

Happens in doctors offices too. Now I try to request all paperwork in advance so I can read. At one (where I thought highly of the doctor who seemed very kind and competent), 2 people in the front office insisted to me that the "other document" to which the main one referred and said I was also agreeing was the same document that had the reference. After I refused to sign, one left and the other made a phone call to find the real "other" doc.

I think (though am not an attorney, so not sure what a really honest, articulate, kind one would say) that if attorneys who wrote these long, difficult agreements applied honesty and the Golden Rule, they would start reading them themselves more often in general life, and they would word them so that their target audience would have an easy time understanding them, etc etc. But the executives have other things on their minds I suppose, and don't push for this (or care...?). (maybe this is one of my pet peeves--sometimes I wonder if it just makes life harder for honest people). But I still think being honest and kind is totally worth it in the long run. Wrote more elsewhere on that.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#167

Post by lcall »

banana_giraffe wrote: post #161
lcall wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do the same kinds of things, but sometimes it helps warn them in a friendly way before scheduling the appointment. :) Often, I try to request the papers etc in advance, to make it easier on all of us, then I can take my time, ask questions, etc.

As I said, it was a bizarre conversation. I did ask if I could reschedule if time was tight right now. I totally get it if they had an appointment, even something not work related, that I'm putting at risk. They were having none of it. It's possible I just got a jerk.

Yah, it is hard. Sometimes I thought afterward that I was a jerk (or someone else was). Live, learn, practice as we go sometimes. Frankly I applaud you for efforts at being honest and reasonable at the same time -- it is not a skill we are born with, it would seem...?

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#168

Post by perl4ever »

lcall wrote: post #166
joekrill wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely astounding to me how many folks blindly sign legal documents. Especially employment related. Whenever I've pushed back on an employment contract, NDA, or similar it's always met with sudden confusion - as though this has never happened before. In fairness, it's almost never met with negatively. But it shows that no one else has ever bothered to question it. And when I talk to colleagues I definitely g…

Happens in doctors offices too. Now I try to request all paperwork in advance so I can read. At one (where I thought highly of the doctor who seemed very kind and competent), 2 people in the front office insisted to me that the "other document" to which the main one referred and said I was also agreeing was the same document that had the reference. After I refused to sign, one left and the other made a phone call to…

Last time I went to urgent care/the ER, I was told to sign an electronic pad repeatedly, and no document was provided at all, on paper or screen. It was just verbal, sign for this, sign for that.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#169

Post by perl4ever »

banana_giraffe wrote: post #123
II2II wrote: post #18

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…

When I went into sing my Mortgage Loan, the officer pointed at the X's and said "sign here, here, and initial here, here, and here" I then turned to page one and started reading. The conversation that ensued, where they tried to get me to sign without "wasting their time" was amazing. I get I'm unusual for wanted to read what I'm signing, but I can't have been the only one. I do suspect I was one of the rare ones tha…

My instinct in that situation was to talk to the person about what I was reading when I felt they were getting impatient. Not let them have a conversation about hurrying up.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#170

Post by Wowfunhappy »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #156
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should you need to sign a TOS in order to use some consumer software? No, what would happen is TOS's would go away for everything but high-level professional software.

Websites with accounts all have TOS because they need some legal recourse to boot you from their platform. The TOS lays out what you are allowed to do on the site (in addition to other things). That’s not changing no matter what you (or I) wish would happen without a massive change in how the legal system works in America.

I just don’t think this is a real problem. Restaurants and theaters can kick me out be being disruptive. Websites can ban ip’s used in DDOS attacks even if the user never actually visited the site and thus could not have seen a ToS.

Without ToS’s companies might have to spend some small amount of money on court proceedings they would prefer to avoid. A portion of those lawsuits may be worthwhile.

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