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Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

nytimes.com

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Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#161

Post by qqqwerty »

j8hn wrote: post #116
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love the back and forth of terminology ("rioter" vs "terrorist" vs "attacker") There was a mix of terrorists, insurrectionists, rioters, hooligans and protesters in the crowd. Those who entered the Capitol were no longer protesters. Those damaging or stealing property were more than hooligans. Those aiming to disrupt the election count were more than rioters. And those with aims on harming members of Congress wer…

I agree that we shouldn't paint all the people in attendance with a broad brush. What would you call the people who entered the Capital building and stayed inside the red velvet ropes, who took selfies and made videos like they were on a tour?

I guess it depends. Did they enter the building via the security line and get properly checked in as is normally required of visitors, or did they waltz in through one of the many broken windows and doors? If the later, they likely broke the law [1] and entered a restricted space, so maybe 'rioter' is an appropriate term for them.

Also worth mentioning, if that same person had a social media history filled with "stop the steal" rhetoric, I don't see why sedition charges couldn't be levied [2]. Even if they were relatively well behaved during the riot, their mere presence was disrupting a central function of government. So I think a well behaved rioter with a proclivity for 'revolutionary' social media discourse can probably be classified as an incompetent insurrectionist.

It will be interesting to see how hard the prosecutors go after these folks. On one hand, a large chunk of the protestors probably got a bit swept up in the moment and likely did not intend to break any laws. But on the other hand, nearly the entire presidential line of succession was in that building performing one of the more important functions of our government. A strong case can be made for showing no leniency.

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1752 [2] https://time.com/5928270/capitol-domestic-terrorism/

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#162

Post by willyt »

zo1 wrote: post #130
throwaway346434 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This event is highly comparable to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch - Attempted coup - Radicalized and misinformed supporters (majority) with an extremist, armed element (minority) - Extremely dangerous moment for free and fair elections in the west What would the world have looked like if in 1923, the disaffected germans who took part in that were identified en masse; and serious efforts were made to r…

Thank you for the info, I never knew about those two events! > "From 1945 to 1950, the Allied powers detained over 400,000 Germans in internment camps in extrajudicial fashion in the name of denazification."

Also political scientists from eminent universities in the US and Britain were heavily involved in the renewal of democracy in Germany. With the Germans they designed a system that is more democratic than those that existed in their own countries. The system is designed to operate as a coalition government. No one party can dominate, but because of the coalition system mainstream centrist views get properly represented while extremists get some presence in the Bundestag but are unlikely to be needed to form a coalition and will never be in a position to dominate it, like they have done in the US.

It’s worked out pretty well for the Germans, wouldn’t you say?

The US is a two party state. So extremists just need to infiltrate one party to corrupt the system, especially if the other party is not providing competent opposition.

Currently the security of democracy in the US, and therefore the balance of power between Russia, China and the US which is the basis of world peace in so much as it exists today, rests in the constitutional procedures of the Republican Party and the Democratic Party as much as it does in the US constitution, who sets those rules? Do Americans memorise them in school?

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#163

Post by kombucha111 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #156
j8hn wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that we shouldn't paint all the people in attendance with a broad brush. What would you call the people who entered the Capital building and stayed inside the red velvet ropes, who took selfies and made videos like they were on a tour?

> What would you call the people who entered the Capital building and stayed inside the red velvet ropes, who took selfies and made videos like they were on a tour? Hooligans. To be criminally charged but allowed to avoid jail time. If they, I don’t know, refrain from breaking into federal property for a few years and pass a community college civics course, the record is sealed. What they did was serious. Little diff…

What about the dudes with zip ties?

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#164

Post by kombucha111 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #63
jackson1442 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, cancel culture is just the free market at work and has always felt, to me, like a narrative peddled by the powerful to allow themselves to not be held accountable for their actions. If I don't want to buy a Musk-mobile because I don't agree with Musk on issues like racism[0] or don't like how he treats his employees[1], I am allowed to act on it. I am also allowed to share these thoughts with people on ap…

"If you want to post racist/sexist/homophobic things on your public Twitter, so be it, but don't be surprised when someone finds it." So, what is going to be the kiss of death in 2050? Do you know in advance? How many of your contemporary comments are going to run afoul of the standard of 2050 and will you remember to delete them all, including from Internet archive/wayback sites, in 2049? Remember, a senior manager…

So whats your point? Culture changes and what was once permissible is now taboo? This is decidedly not a new phenomenon.

I just can't find any sort of argument being made here.

No one can predict the future but do you believe culture is static and that the cultural landscape of 2050 will the same as 2020?

Close to 30 years ago everyone was up in arms that Murphy Brown was a having a child out of wedlock and without a man! Shock! Horror!

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#165

Post by inglor_cz »

kombucha111 wrote: post #164
inglor_cz wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you want to post racist/sexist/homophobic things on your public Twitter, so be it, but don't be surprised when someone finds it." So, what is going to be the kiss of death in 2050? Do you know in advance? How many of your contemporary comments are going to run afoul of the standard of 2050 and will you remember to delete them all, including from Internet archive/wayback sites, in 2049? Remember, a senior manager…

So whats your point? Culture changes and what was once permissible is now taboo? This is decidedly not a new phenomenon. I just can't find any sort of argument being made here. No one can predict the future but do you believe culture is static and that the cultural landscape of 2050 will the same as 2020? Close to 30 years ago everyone was up in arms that Murphy Brown was a having a child out of wedlock and without a…

The point is that human life is comparatively long and current technology enables the witch-hunters to destroy people for very old and no longer relevant utterances.

This is something that, IMHO, the society should frown upon and discourage. Destroying people should be as hard as possible, that is why nation states built so many protections into law over centuries.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#166

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kombucha111 wrote: post #163
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would you call the people who entered the Capital building and stayed inside the red velvet ropes, who took selfies and made videos like they were on a tour? Hooligans. To be criminally charged but allowed to avoid jail time. If they, I don’t know, refrain from breaking into federal property for a few years and pass a community college civics course, the record is sealed. What they did was serious. Little diff…

What about the dudes with zip ties?

> What about the dudes with zip ties?

That would show wilful intent to “by force...prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of [a] law of the United States” [1]. Insurrection. Jail time, up to twenty years.

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#167

Post by JohnBooty »

rkagerer wrote: post #159
JohnBooty wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've marched in support of BLM. Protest is necessary, and for it to be effective it generally has to make folks uncomfortable on some level and that may include a level of civil disobedience. It's not supposed to be all fun and sunshine, particularly if you are the adversary of those protesting. I'm diametrically opposed to Trump and his supporters on a lot of issues, but I recognize that a functional society needs t…

Not sure why your comment was at the bottom of the page; it seems like one of the more thoughtful responses. I have to admit my gut feeling on governments using facial recognition at scale to round up its citizens feels like something you'd find under an authoritarian regime, reminds me of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14643433 I think it's important to try to frame an opinion on tech like this from a well-inf…

I think some of the same (100% valid and necessary) questions might have been raised in the past about identification cards, fingerprints, handwriting analysis, etc.

I think the bottom line is how the tech is employed.

Are we tracking ordinary citizens en masse, for some potential future use? Are we tracking folks just because they're dissenting/protesting? We would probably all agree those uses are bad. Very bad.

I'm not terribly worried about using them to identify specific criminal targets. Put another way, how absurd would it be for us to have perfectly clear video of people committing specific criminal acts, and not use the available technology to identify them?

On a related note, the (lack of) opsec displayed by the Capitol rioters is... really something. These people were happily mugging for the cameras, sans masks. I'm not sure if it was stupidity or entitlement. The easy and snarky answer would be "stupidity" but there were clearly intelligent folk among them or at least people that should know to cover their tracks better: lawyers, military and police officers.

I think there was a rather stunning sense of entitlement there: a lot of these folks honestly cannot believe they're being charged with crimes. As if they expected to be greeted as liberators!

God help us if and when they sharpen up their tactics. The sickening feeling in my stomach tells me that this was a hell of a practice run.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#168

Post by heyoni »

j8hn wrote: post #121
heyoni wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one swept up all of the power. It’s insane to say that just because democrats are in control. There’s an entire spectrum of opinions and differences within the party that is being set aside in order to fight for some common beliefs...like ending the war on drugs, the war on the female reproductive system, and the war on education. There’s a baseline among progressives which, once reached, will create entirely new…

"The war on the female reproductive system". I realize you are referring to pro-choice. I'm curious why you chose to phrase it in this way. What is the war on education?

I'm not sure why I chose to phrase it that way. Probably because it's ongoing, multifaceted and victim to some very very dirty tactics. Also, we like "waging war" on things here rather than solve them.

Briefly, our education system in the US is one of the least well performing systems amongst modern states. It is also the least well funded systems with conservatives trying to practically hand it over to private schools.

Then you have public funding issues too numerous to list that contribute to the low quality of education including student loan debt being debt you cannot bankrupt your way out of, or cutting off funds to channels like PBS...

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#169

Post by salawat »

itronitron wrote: post #150
zozbot234 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad thing is precisely that no-one cares about "re-integrating" proponents of right-leaning views "to society". Everyone is talking about forcibly deplatforming them all out of society which, even if successful, will only make them far more marginalized and far more open to dangerous, violent extremism. Is this really what we need? We've had enough divisiveness already, so why not try a more constructive approach…

I think a lot of people care about re-integrating those with right-leaning views to society. It is important for them to express their own concerns in their own words instead of just joining in various egomaniacs' power fantasies. As much as they hate the far left, I believe that progressives such as Bernie and AOC are actually far better for them, and everyone they know, than the current GOP leadership.

>I think a lot of people care about re-integrating those with right-leaning views to society.

Ah, so right-leaning views disqualify you from society now? You have to be re-integrated?

Have you spoken what you wrote out loud? Do you not understand the message that sends?

>It is important for them to express their own concerns in their own words instead of just joining in various egomaniacs' power fantasies.

>As much as they hate the far left, I believe that progressives such as Bernie and AOC are actually far better for them, and everyone they know, than the current GOP leadership.

Wow. The self-referential inconsistency is strong with this one. If you truly don't grok that what you're asserting the right needs re-education to address, and the same devotion you're putting into Bernie and AOC are two sides of the same coin, you seriously need to reflect.

1) Causes. Not people. 2) Just because they don't like the stuff your team or tribe likes doesn't make them any less of a human being. 3) You win no friends and convince no one by demonizing that which they look up to, then copy pasting in what you like and telling them they're sick for liking what they like. Yes, society is full of people who spend a great deal of energy doing just that; but it doesn't mean everyone knows what they are doing when they are doing it. The beauty is that things just generally work out in spite of it because people don't build up enough momentum to destabilize the overarching social structure. It's like Brownian motion writ large. In the case when you're doing it correctly, you must have put in the effort to understand what it is you're replacing first, why it ended up there, then making your entire pitch readily communicable, and being willing to live and let live genuinely. 4) It has taken really immersing myself in both liberal and conservative communities to realize how insane most people are, and how little work the average person puts into thinking out the consequences of policy direction. I'm amazed anything manages to stay working at all.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#170

Post by colejohnson66 »

jaspax wrote: post #152
michaelt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, the vast majority of people with right-leaning views weren't even at the Capitol. But if you believe the rioters were part of an attempted coup, trying to overthrow democracy and install Trump as a dictator while setting bombs to kill their opponents, that seems pretty crazy to me. Of course, some people might argue it wasn't an attempted coup, just a mob of high-spirited protesters. Much like sports fans…

The actual behavior of the protesters seems to match your third paragraph much more than your second paragraph. They got into the capitol building and then... just kind of wandered around. Took some selfies. Stole some memorabilia. Nothing about their behavior suggests that there was an organized plan to actually take over the USG, or that they protesters themselves had any idea what to do after they broke in.

Some have suggested that they wanted to burn the ballot boxes in an attempt to prevent counting them. The problem is that, even if they did, it wouldn’t matter. The counting is just a formality and they can declare a winner without them. They already know who won.
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