WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#161

Post by torben-friis » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

backWardz00 wrote: post #156

seesawtron wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social life is impossible without the mainstream technology. Sure you can find alternatives but if no one uses it other than you, you end up being sidelined. The technology gets enforced and leaves one with no choice but to accept it or be a red flag. Shouldn't it be possible to delete your whatsapp chat and contacts data regularly from the cloud? Eg. one could delete the whatsapp account, clear data on cloud and mak…

Your mistake is believing those apps are for socializing. They’re for aggregate metrics and attention collecting on the part of the company. I do not have a Facebook empire, Twitter, TikTok or other social media presence. I email academics I can’t visit. I group text friends and family to make plans, and use the calendar built into my phone to remind myself of those events.

In many countries, WhatsApp equals texting, period. No one will use sms, among other things because they're not free (~20 cents per message, character limited, no multimedia).

The reality is that WhatsApp is a requirement for social life. Any solution that doesn't start from that point lacks any practicality.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#162

Post by krick » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

generalizations wrote: post #128

Everyone is comparing signal vs. telegram, but what about element? Far as I can tell, that might actually be secure. https://element.io/

Is this Riot rebranded? Huh, it seems I'm out of the loop.

Yeah, Matrix is great. I was probably among the first people to install Riot, but the grim reality is nobody (well, one geek-friend of mine and his wife) uses Matrix. Look, even I was surprised when you mentioned "Element": thought it must be some new messenger I didn't hear about...

But I'd surely rather like people to promote Element here, not Signal.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#163

Post by ummonk » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

bilal4hmed wrote: post #11

WhatsApp has such a strong network effect, that a wholesale move off is very difficult. I asked my immediate family to move to Signal and they agreed. Then came the question - can we talk to people on whatsapp using signal because friends, aunts, uncles, cousins who live international all live on whatsapp. Moving your network, their network and their networks network becomes quite the task.

While the network effects are there, I do think messaging networks are less durable than social media networks, because you can take your contact list with you across networks.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#164

Post by nalekberov » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

mhd wrote: post #154

utf_8x wrote: post #62

Once again - Signal[0] as an alternative. It's fully Open-Source (including the backend) and their crypto is public and independently verified[1][2][3]... [0] https://signal.org/en/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)#Encryption_p ... [2] https://threatpost.com/signal-audit-reveals-protocol-cryptog ... [3] https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/1013.pdf [PDF]

I don't read a lot about it on HN, but at least the threema client[0] is open-source, too, and the servers are in Switzerland. [0]: https://threema.ch/en/open-source

“Open source” is sold to the people as “you have the most control”, but in reality once your data reaches their end, you have no idea what is deal with it. Open source centralized solution does not an will not solve the problem. They can not.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#165

Post by misiti3780 » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

bigiain wrote: post #35

frereubu wrote: post #22

I'd love to give up WhatsApp, but network effects are key here. I tried moving my extended family off WhatsApp onto Signal a couple of years ago and it failed miserably because the app wasn't nearly as easy to use, and they had all their friends on Whatsapp. Has anyone here had any success moving a large group of people onto something like Signal or Telegram? If so, do you have any tips?

From the opposite point of view, in the last hour I’ve been added to 3 different group chats on Signal that were all previously WhatsApp chats (in which I did not participate, in spite of many of those friends repeatedly asking me to). That’s added at least 20 or 30 friends/acquaintances into my signal contact list that I’m 99% sure downloaded signal for the first time this morning.

Why not just use SMS/iMessage groups ?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#166

Post by backWardz00 » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

torben-friis wrote: post #161

backWardz00 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mistake is believing those apps are for socializing. They’re for aggregate metrics and attention collecting on the part of the company. I do not have a Facebook empire, Twitter, TikTok or other social media presence. I email academics I can’t visit. I group text friends and family to make plans, and use the calendar built into my phone to remind myself of those events.

In many countries, WhatsApp equals texting, period. No one will use sms, among other things because they're not free (~20 cents per message, character limited, no multimedia). The reality is that WhatsApp is a requirement for social life. Any solution that doesn't start from that point lacks any practicality.

HTTPs works with email, email works over data networks.

I get social inertia is a thing.

Somehow I’ve blown it off and life still works.

Summarizing it as “life begins and ends with WhatsApp” seems just as ridiculous to me.

Acquiesce and nothing changes.

Turn and face the strange.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#167

Post by FalconSensei » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

st1x7 wrote: post #93

Evidlo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just moving from one silo to another though. Users of centralized services don't have much recourse when the company pulls the rug out from under them.

The problem isn't silos, it's lack of privacy. Signal solves that problem.

Signal isn't 100% private: you need a phone number, and you can't use on a computer unless you install the app on the phone first.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#168

Post by franga2000 » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

stabbles wrote: post #118

nkingsy wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the problem profit motive? Wikipedia is a foundation, so it works the same way it always has. We need this for more basic services like messaging and identity

You can donate to Signal too. What has to happen until people realize they should be willing to pay a little money for a service? We've actually witnessed that people _are_ willing to pay for streaming services like Spotify and Netflix after a long time of illegal torrents. How can we spread this sentiment towards services like email and chat too?

> How can we spread this sentiment towards services like email and chat too?

We can't, because those two things are in direct opposition. Piracy was less convenient and offered fewer features that people wanted, so they moved to platforms that were more convenient. The current giants (Gmail, Facebook, WhatsApp...) are more convenient than their alternatives (generic email, Mastodon, Signal...) and so the pressure is not to move, but in fact to stay.

In general, the pressure is always decentralised->centralised, which is exactly what torrents->Netflix was. Even if we had infinite funds to offer people distributed services for free forever, we would still need to make them more convenient than their current centralised ones - if on top of not being more convenient, we also want to charge them, I see no reason why the average person would ever want to switch.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#169

Post by rpdillon » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

gotem wrote: post #34

srfvtgb wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately I don't live in a place where WhatsApp is completely pervasive. I personally had luck saying "if you want to contact me use Signal, iMessage or at the very least SMS" and when people asked why, I would cite Cambridge Analytica.

Which turned out to be a bunch of hyped up marketing talk. Why does every person in SV I know seem to love the narrative that we’re being mind controlled by micro-targeted FB ads, which to be fair is what I used to believe. Everyone on HN switches between “ads don’t work and targeting is BS” to “ads are manipulating our entire country by taking our data”

I think they are both true, but the second is worded differently than I would.

I think ads can work, but don't in many cases (based on recent stories that cancelling certain kinds of ad spend has no effect on outcomes). In some cases, like Uber advertising to get users, this seems entirely plausible.

So I largely think ads themselves are kind of harmless. But ad-backed business models are dangerous, because they optimize for "engagement", which tends to promote content that is divisive over more thoughtful, nuanced content. Sadly, it also seems to require gathering huge amounts of information about users in a centralized spot, which seems risky for a variety of reasons.

The whole thing reminds me of a call I got about 10 years ago to participate in a survey about smoking, and one of the questions they asked was "Do you believe nicotine causes cancer?" I paused because my understanding is that nicotine itself doesn't cause cancer, but the common delivery mechanisms at the time (smoking, dipping) do increase the risk of cancer. They forced me to answer yes/no, so I said "no", but obviously a decade later, I still remember it. Do ads cause harm? Probably not much, taken on their own. But everything _around_ them seems to.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#170

Post by yumraj » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

This is the straw that broke the camel's back, for me anyway..

Just started the process of notifying my connections that I'll be uninstalling WhatsApp. If not Signal, then just Phone, iMessage, SMS and email work well..

Hopefully this will drive larger adoption of Signal..