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GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

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Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#161

Post by waihtis »

f6v wrote: post #144
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Especially us europeans should not rely on American services at all.It's not worth it. Sure, please let me know how the EU plans to build Office 365, AWS, GitHub competitors of similar scale, quality and success. We have no private investors that would pony up enough money to go against US tech titans and fat chance the EU would ever fund such initiatives and if they would, the money would evaporate over night to co…

The Silicon Valley wasn’t built overnight. The software industry is just taking off in the EU. Mind you, nobody would have thought that the US would loose their leading role in the Middle East, look at them now. I can see the same happening in tech.

Problem is that EU is not comparable in any manner to the US. For one, where do you suggest the Silicon Valley of EU is? London would've been a decent bet except that they just bailed.

As someone else mentioned, capital is way harder to raise (meaning slower to market) - and then an underrated factor which is equally important is how easy or difficult is it to sell as a nascent startup. At least in my industry (cybersecurity) it has been very hard in the EU vs US in the earlier stages of product maturity.

Much like the parent comment, I don't see this changing anytime soon and I'm fully betting on the fact US will keep their dominance in tech.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#162

Post by richardwhiuk »

kitd wrote: post #134
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because github is a company based in the USA and must comply with the law of USA. It does not matter where the customer of github is based. It would be the same with gitlab because they are based and hosted in the USA. If you are German and USA decides to apply sancations on Germany because of NordStream2 tomorrow, well, good luck setting up your own gitlab ce...

Ofc GH has to comply with US law, but you missed the question: does US law require blocking access to cover those who are not on the sanctions list? Or look at it another way: this is an Indian company. Does one employee opening their laptop in Iran make it an Iranian company under US law?

If the employee was Iranian, then yes, GitHub would be required to do this.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#163

Post by tpoacher »

cies wrote: post #75
brmgb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an Iranian employee. That's just someone visiting Iran and login to their GitHub account. GitHub reaction is outrageously disproportionate. They should just prevent login from Iran. They had no basis for blocking a legitimate customer in Europe based on this.

Funny how GH gets shit for what the US has as laws. I'd focus my outrage on the law, the lawmaker, and those who uphold it. GH is merely trying to go by the book/ avoid penalties, as expected.

Well, it's kinda like the whole "if a misbehaving app crashes the whole OS, whose fault is it? The app's? Or the OS?"

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#164

Post by jfrunyon »

imposterr wrote: post #100
matsemann wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single person has no way of influencing this. Twisting Github's and others' arms is a great proxy. If they get flak for their handling of this, they can go argue with law makers.

Does that not just speak to a larger problem with the current political system that twisting the arm of a large company is the only way to affect change?

Does that mean that we shouldn't address any of the smaller problems?

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#165

Post by fennecfoxen »

tpoacher wrote: post #145
icelancer wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they are. Propose an EU or non-Chinese Asian alternative to AWS that is, say, 80% as efficient/effective. If that's not possible, then choosing AWS for your startup/scaling business is not the stupidest move you can make, assuming AWS fits your use case. "MS Windows having a marketshare of 96% should not necessarily stop you from designing your business around linux" But Windows doesn't have this kind of markets…

I think you're missing the point. It's less a question of "can you find an alternative that is at least 80% as efficient", and more a question of "is this 20% bump in efficiency worth the liability risk". Your opinion is 'yes'. OP's opinion is 'no'. Both are valid opinions and highly depend on the nature of your business. But, OP's somewhat un-american sentiment aside (which I believe is mostly what you're reacting t…

Maximizing the risk-adjusted returns on the business is the top of the agenda. Sometimes this means shedding risk, particularly at well established companies; sometimes this means embracing it, particularly at younger ones. If you don’t have revenue yet there’s little need to protect it.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#166

Post by CaptArmchair »

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #146
CaptArmchair wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such presumptions have, historically, led to such actions as the wholesale internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. This included 2nd and 3rd generations born in America, who never had left America. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America... So, no, it's not merely a "sensible" assumption. It's an assumption that carries collective trauma and negative connotations for many wh…

You cannot relate two different ideas by virtue of one tangentially common theme. It's common sense that most people are from the same country their parents are from, given what we know about immigration. Interning people based on predicting their behavior due to ancestry is a whole different ballgame.

> It's common sense that most people are from the same country their parents are from, given what we know about immigration.

The legal concept you're referring to is called "ius soli". The legal concept which serves as a basis to determine someone's allegiance by their ancestry is called "ius sanguinis". [1][2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis

So, no, it's not "common sense" to make that assumption.

Moreover, there's also the concept of "right to return" in international law. Many nations have implemented this in their nationality laws in a way that extends surprisingly far.

For instance, if you're of Luxembourgish descent through the male line of your family, you could just claim Luxembourg citizenship - and by extension E.U. citizenship - under Article 7 of their nationality laws. Something which was recently pointed out on Reddit. Even if you weren't born in Luxembourg or never have set a foot in the E.U. proper. [3]

[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/izkwzk/ysk_t...

I'm pretty sure some people might be surprised to discover they have a right to citizenship in another nation simply because they took the time to dig into their ancestry, their history and nationality laws.

> Interning people based on predicting their behavior due to ancestry is a whole different ballgame.

Of course it is.

But, why discuss someone's citizenship or ancestry then if it - apparently - doesn't matter in this discussion at all?

The only other theory that explains why this person got his access revoked from Github because he visited Iran, regardless of the reasons why, nevermind his citizenship or his ancestry.

If citizenship and/or ancestry matters, as is seemingly implied but never voiced in this discussion, then bringing up the implications of how policies reflect on that assumption clearly is relevant given the historic perspective.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#168

Post by ajsnigrutin »

richardwhiuk wrote: post #158
jhasse wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it.

There's definitely an argument that GitHub is one of the primary reasons that Git beat Mercurial.

Yep!

"One click" fork + "one click" pull request are its killer features.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#169

Post by enriquto »

kiallmacinnes wrote: post #93
archi42 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are countries in which being gay will still cause you serious trouble. Or not agreeing with the political leadership. We are quite privileged to just assume that following the law as written (AND interpreted by the judiciary) will mostly work out alright and doesn't cause us moral dilemma. And companies consist of people, too. Is it then all of a sudden morally acceptable to build spying software so your countr…

We can all cite harmful laws, does that mean companies (and people) should be free to ignore all law? Should US companies be free to ignore laws related to sanctions because the UAE has made being gay illegal or because political opposition in China could land you in jail? Where do you draw the line? Specifically - for a US company as is being discussed.

> companies (and people) should be free to ignore all law?

Yet you continue with your strawmans. Nobody said that. The crucial word in your sentence is "all", with which nobody has agreed here. Of course nobody is above law. But sometimes, in exceptional circumstances, a particular law turns out to be immoral. In that case, and only in that case, it is wrong to follow that particular law, and it is right to do the illegal alternative.

If a company is found to have followed an immoral law and performed harmful (but lawful) acts, it is right that society punish that company later (e.g., when the law situation is solved). More so in this case, when the company is overzealous in its application of that immoral law.

Re: GitHub blocks entire company because one employee was in Iran

#170

Post by kuriho »

icelancer wrote: post #129
Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the companies in the EU produces enterprise software almost no one on this website uses (SAP) What? SAP is a huge software that is used in a lot of companies.

Correct. I'm also willing to bet the people on Hacker News are not typically in the circle of businesses that use SAP.

SAP Developer/Customer here.

Does that mean most people on HN work for companies either too small for or too competent to outsource an ERP system?

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