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Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

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161–170 of 209 posts

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#161
post #51

This is the paradox of wanting crypto to be both widespread and free of government influence. It cannot gain "market share" without interacting in some form or fashion with the regulatory structures already in place, putting it under de facto regulation of any jurisdiction of the people who want to use it.

XRP is centralized - it was issued by a centralized corporation, the ledger is permissioned (which is why it’s so fast) so not just anyone can join the network in a meaningful way, and the way it was distributed is highly suspect. Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are entirely different. Ripple is not like bitcoin and the regulations of the USA and other countries will affect bitcoin’s value but not determine bitcoin’s c…

>XRP is centralized

Useless statement XRP is the token there is no definition what makes the token centralized or not. Half the tokens owned by one party? or maybe a quarter is enough already? Its a useless statement as there is no common definition. no one talks about token decentralization anyway. Its about the control over the network that should not be centralized.

>the ledger is permissioned

This is factually wrong. Anyone can transact on the ledger there is no permission required form anyone and no one has the power to exclude someone.

>so not just anyone can join the network in a meaningful way

Also factually wrong. You can "join" the network in any possible way (node/full node/validator/participant/developer/you name it). You can change the code and send in you amendment. If 80% think is worth adding its added. If not its probably because the proposal was garbage not because someone has the power to block your amendment. So far there has been 1 amendment not supported by ripple that still reached the 80% support. Ripple could do absolutely nothing against that.

XRPs existence is also not determined by the USA. XRP would exist without ripple or the USA as long some people run the software it exists. Even if all would go offline it could be restarted any time.

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#162
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct - they explicitly said BTC and ETH are not securities. However ETH's launch was conducted via ICO, where people sent BTC in return for ETH, and the exact same launch style was later declared de-facto illegal security sales with companies being penalized. The SEC essentially caved to the crypto industry and said (paraphrasing) "Yes, ETH was launched as a security, but it became 'decentralized enough' where it…

I read that more as the SEC saying "We didn't reall know what we were dealing with at the time." And their thinking and policy decisions have evolved.to fit both their understanding and evolving crypto scene.

Same should apply to XRP then because it exist way longer than ETH. But unlike ETH, XRP was never sold in return for and arbitrary amount of BTC/USD it was first given away for free and later sold at market value.

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#163
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that more as the SEC saying "We didn't reall know what we were dealing with at the time." And their thinking and policy decisions have evolved.to fit both their understanding and evolving crypto scene.

Same should apply to XRP then because it exist way longer than ETH. But unlike ETH, XRP was never sold in return for and arbitrary amount of BTC/USD it was first given away for free and later sold at market value.

I think they should shut them both down :)

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#164
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same should apply to XRP then because it exist way longer than ETH. But unlike ETH, XRP was never sold in return for and arbitrary amount of BTC/USD it was first given away for free and later sold at market value.

I think they should shut them both down :)

Why? Does it hurt you? Its all just a huge tech experiment just like the internet was. We have no clue where it leads to but I want to see it in 10 or 20 years.

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#165
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they should shut them both down :)

Why? Does it hurt you? Its all just a huge tech experiment just like the internet was. We have no clue where it leads to but I want to see it in 10 or 20 years.

What I mean to say is they should both be regulated as securities which is what they both are. And yeah it's fly by night unregulated attitude hurts plenty of people. Doesn't have to hurt me to be bad.

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#166
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Does it hurt you? Its all just a huge tech experiment just like the internet was. We have no clue where it leads to but I want to see it in 10 or 20 years.

What I mean to say is they should both be regulated as securities which is what they both are. And yeah it's fly by night unregulated attitude hurts plenty of people. Doesn't have to hurt me to be bad.

A security of what? Just because it does hurt people doesn't make it inherently bad. If you could avoid being hurt maybe other can too and thous who did get hurt anyway took the risk on purpose. Noting wrong with that. The SEC should prevent people from misleading or fraudulent offerings not from anything that has a known high risk. Selling a random token is like printing my own money. The SEC would not prevent me form selling worthless piece of paper if I dont mislead buyers into thinking its some kind of ownership for something. There is a difference between preventing fraud and preventing stupidity.

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#167
post #160
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow that's super-confused! The original Bitcoin software supported transaction replacement. You could mark a transaction as non-final and then it could be replaced until it got confirmed (potentially gated by its locktime) or until a replacement was made that was marked final. As is necessary in a distributed system, the replacement and non-replacement was best-effort and an older version could be confirmed (or a ver…

Thanks for the thoughtful response. According to it, 0-conf transactions are possible in BTC as well. Why isn't more people using this? It seems safe enough, since attacking such a transaction is probably more expensive than the gains from the scam.

It's only safe in the sense that most people aren't trying to rip you off.

A moderately technically sophisticated attacker will concurrently broadcast one txn version near miners, and another to as many other nodes as they can reach. Their success rate on double spends can easily be >90% and the marginal cost of the attack is approximately zero.

Other than the technical know-how to setup the transaction broadcasting and the risk that you might just pay for what you were buying, there is no cost to the scam.

Same story on Bitcoin and BCH (here is a tweet about making 2511 successful double spends on BCH: https://twitter.com/peterrizun/status/1051088866743017473?la...).

The situation is somewhat worse on BCH in the sense that they only have ~1.2% of Bitcoin's hashrate, so there are many single Bitcoin miners that can reorg bch, so even single confirmations aren't particularly safe.

There are, of course, plenty of cases where 0-conf could be accepted-- e.g. you could credit someone assets but not allow withdraw until they clear, or if goods will ship the next day you need only check that they've confirmed before shipment. Some places do this now.

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#168
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all true and anyone who payed attention to more than the heavily censored propaganda soaked /r/bitcoin saw it happen in real time. Years of saying that a throughput of more than a few kilobytes was impossible while one of the devs repeatedly - and this is not a joke - stated the sun revolved around the earth.

> Years of saying that a throughput of more than a few kilobytes was impossible I don't think anyone thought that was impossible from a technical standpoint, just from a decentralization standpoint. >while one of the devs repeatedly - and this is not a joke - stated the sun revolved around the earth. source?

> I don't think anyone thought that was impossible from a technical standpoint, just from a decentralization standpoint.

That's the same thing and it makes zero sense. Most people never sync with the chain and those that want to only need bandwidth far less than watching a low res youtube video. Validating blocks is at least 600x faster than real time on a computer from last decade. I would love to hear how you can rationalize a statement like that. I watched people repeat this for years and when asked for explanations never saw anyone come close to something coherent.

> source?

Here he is denying evolution and claiming the sun revolves around the earth:

https://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?p=203752&sid=...

Here he is claiming that slavery is only "discouraged".

https://np.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/4q2cej/why...

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#169
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean to say is they should both be regulated as securities which is what they both are. And yeah it's fly by night unregulated attitude hurts plenty of people. Doesn't have to hurt me to be bad.

A security of what? Just because it does hurt people doesn't make it inherently bad. If you could avoid being hurt maybe other can too and thous who did get hurt anyway took the risk on purpose. Noting wrong with that. The SEC should prevent people from misleading or fraudulent offerings not from anything that has a known high risk. Selling a random token is like printing my own money. The SEC would not prevent me fo…

> “A security of what”

There’s a legal test called the Howey test you can use to find out if what you’re looking at is a security. [1] Roughly speaking a security is anything you put your money into with the expectation of it becoming worth more through no effort of your own.

> “Selling a random token is like printing my own money. The SEC would not prevent me form selling worthless piece of paper if I dont mislead buyers into thinking its some kind of ownership for something.”

You seem to misunderstand the definition of a security but even if you were right the conversation doesn’t end there.

The SEC absolutely has a mandate under the Securities Act to stop people who could be hurt by garbage offerings from buying them. They got this because permitting random unregulated securities sales in part led to the Great Depression, and they didn’t call it that because it was a pretty good depression. Sale of hot garbage on margin to folks who had no idea what they were doing destabilized the entire American financial system for a decade.

This is totally fair because if folks, especially poor folks, get wiped out they end up on public assistance. That means gains are privatized and losses are socialized. The SEC drew a totally reasonable middle ground line with the accredited investor rules. Accredited investors can buy all the hot garbage they want. Folks who can’t afford to can’t. That’s what securities registration gets us.

You may not agree with it but it is strictly their mandate.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/howey-test.asp

Re: Coinbase to Suspend Trading in XRP

#170
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A security of what? Just because it does hurt people doesn't make it inherently bad. If you could avoid being hurt maybe other can too and thous who did get hurt anyway took the risk on purpose. Noting wrong with that. The SEC should prevent people from misleading or fraudulent offerings not from anything that has a known high risk. Selling a random token is like printing my own money. The SEC would not prevent me fo…

> “A security of what” There’s a legal test called the Howey test you can use to find out if what you’re looking at is a security. [1] Roughly speaking a security is anything you put your money into with the expectation of it becoming worth more through no effort of your own. > “Selling a random token is like printing my own money. The SEC would not prevent me form selling worthless piece of paper if I dont mislead b…

You dodged the question. A security of what? And yes they do that that right IF there is a security of some sort being sold OR IF there is a contract that implies some sort of security like benefits OF IF there is fraudulent promises being made like promised RoI or voting rights or something.

If you just sell something physically created or digitally created that you legally own and the other party agreed on the price and possible other agreements then this is not in the scope of the SEC.

We dont know the agreements ripple made but there has defensively been a price both sides agreed on and sell restrictions that prevented the buyers from crashing the market. Non of that promises returns, special right or ownership of something else than the XRPs. There is also no allegation of fraud or fraudulent behavior so no sign of misleading statements or promises that where made. The whole think boils down to that the SEC says the XRP sold with a contract where securities because of the contract alone. Something like that never happens. Its not even possible that some XRPs are securities while other are not.

With ETH its a bit different it was retroactively declared as a security at the ICO which never held up in court because it was never challenged by anyone. Its quite obvious they did this to stop the ICO scams but did not sue anyone so this statement would not be challenged.

Yet if XRP was once a security they would consequently call out the free giveaways and the XRP sold without contracts and even the XRPs that where gifted to ripple. After all gifted securities would still have to be registered. Non of that is the case because they cant make up any real reason why 100Bn worthless digital nothings gifted to a companies could ever become a security of something or even of that companies. It just makes no sense at all. So instead they attacked the contracts alone.

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