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How neutering dogs became the norm

moosenuggets.substack.com

161–170 of 233 posts

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#161

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It’s not illegal to breed dogs anywhere in the US AFAIK. The act of leaving your dog un-neutered/spayed is looked down upon and suggested against because they can breed on their own (and produce a lot more dogs) if they escape their owners. Lots of people breed dogs inside and outside metropolitan areas.

And can make A LOT of money doing so. A popular hybrid these days is the Labradoodle. Here's just one example of the going price for a desirable pup.[0] [0] https://www.lancasterpuppies.com/puppy-search/breed/labradoo...

As an aside, I do want to point out for the record (if anyone looking for a puppy sees this link) that Lancaster Puppies is a known platform for puppy mills. I would not recommend finding a dog there.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#162

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No I'm not sure it's worth arguing someone on the internet when there is no good evidence documented either way. I think better reporting should be required. I see what I see and that's good enough for my opinion right now. The biggest part I don't like is how people are being pushed towards shelters to adopt dogs and pitbulls of unknown origin are the highest percentage of dogs available in those shelters. Whether i…

Basically you are now saying their isn't enough evidence so we ought to make laws based on your gut. I'm also going to need a source on shelters accepting animals that have killed other family pets and are subsequently advertised as "good with children" because it kind of sounds like something you learned from your facebook news feed.

Thanks for insult w/ the fb newsfeed. Thanks but no thanks I'm not posting my "friends" dogs on here that are being rehomed through pitbull only shelters. Never mentioned banning pitbulls. But would approve of stricter regulations around their adoption. Love debating with you, you are such a charmer.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#163
post #92

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https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2019... Says Pit Bulls are responsible for 69% of the fatalities (not just of all attacks).

Define a “pit bull”. Go right ahead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

Any large dog that does anything mean ever.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#164
post #109

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I want to preface this by saying: veterinary science is just that, a science. Your vet has spent their career, hopefully anyways, learning what the best veterinary minds know about veterinary medicine. And your vet is probably a whole lot more trustworthy than random comments on the internet like this one. But with that said, I agree completely with the above: citation sorely needed. Show me the data. One of the firs…

The going joke is that everything we know was true for 8 beagles. Veterinary studies are often small in scale and not made of representatives of the whole population. I don't feel like digging through PubMed to back up an assertion like "unneutered dogs are more likely to roam and get hit by car." At best I'll be able to give you a records-review type of study and it's a low quality of evidence. Also, trends don't me…

Oh to be clear, I think it's perfectly plausible (and even likely). You can boil the question down to "does smelling a female in heat lower impulse control in intact males", and, well, yeah, I can believe that without batting an eye. But it was a convenient place to make a larger point about the lack of good evidence in a lot of veterinary medicine, which I think is something we should talk more about (I'd levy the same critique against medicine for people, too!). Anyways, I probably should have been clearer in my original post, that my point was really: it seems completely plausible, but we need to be better about citing research in medicine and being explicit about corresponding confidence levels, and veterinary research is woefully under-funded.

I think my personal biggest complaint about the overwhelming prevalence of desexing in the US is that we're not really being honest with ourselves about why we're doing it. I would argue, based on my experience, (I realize the hypocrisy in using sociological anecdata immediately after complaining about medical anecdata), the vast majority of pet owners who desex their dogs do so out of convenience, and the vast majority of policy encouragements for it (eg: shelters requiring it or cities assessing 10x licensing fees for intact dogs) are done because most US dog owners aren't responsible enough to prevent unwanted pregnancies and have a horrible habit of abandoning unwanted litters. That's not to say that there aren't medical reasons; some of them are even on really solid footing (eg using spaying as a way to stop frequent painful false pregnancies), but I don't think most US dog owners are even aware of that being a thing, much less making medical decisions in response to it.

I think we are starting to see a discussion of sterilization vs desexing, which is great, but even so, as it stands today, spay/neuter is standard practice in the US. I almost never see an acknowledgement that, particularly for females, we've more or less mandated a very substantial, very invasive medical procedure, mostly just because dog owners in the US just don't want to deal with a particular part of canine biology. And I personally think that raises ethical concerns around treatment of animals.

Also, thanks! She's an almost-90-pound ridgeback, so... running is one of the few things keeping us (relatively) sane!

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#165

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You link a pitbull lobbying group as defense? There are plenty of pit bull lobbies. Most of them come from no-kill background because pitbulls are the most common dogs in shelters. There is no national register for dog bites. You can see how coronavirus tracking goes to show how much of a feat that would be. All you can do is track evidence in newspapers and in online media. Interview ER docs, plastic surgeons, etc.

Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association Co-occurrence of potentially preventable factors in 256 dog bite–related fatalities in the United States (2000–2009) Objective—To examine potentially preventable factors in human dog bite–related fatalities (DBRFs) on the basis of data from sources that were more complete, verifiable, and accurate than media reports used in previous studies. Design—Prospective ca…

One thing I just remembered: Previous to Michael Vick's very public dog fighting bust in 2007 most dogs were destroyed after being seized from dog fighting(1). After Michael Vick's exposure organizations popped up to save these dogs. Now saving pit bulls is more popular than ever but not every shelter has the resources to do it.

1. https://www.npr.org/2019/09/26/764790714/what-happened-to-th...

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#166
post #39

I think this author is missing a major piece of dog park social norms where spaying & neutering are concerned -- behavioral changes that (ostensibly) arise from de-sexing dogs, particularly in neutering males. Maybe they should ask these other dog park goers _why_ they are so interested in status of their dog's reproductive organs... In my own anecdotal experience, my male golden retriever (who I've spent considerabl…

The social density aspect is an interesting one. Of course, there is still the option of not having a dog in such an environment. This leads me now to wonder whether it's not a bit selfish to decide to mess with an animal's hormones to get them to conform to an unnatural environment. Not casting aspersions; every dog I've had was spayed/neutered.

Idk. I agree with the idea put forth by some of the other posters in that the natural dog environment is amongst humans. To me it’s about the ‘jobs to be done’ fit that’s important for a dog. If they are naturally (for that individual) placed in an environment activity-wise that’s positive for the individual physically and mentally, then density doesn’t seem such a big issue. The hormone messing is a fair point, but behavioral change isn’t the whole picture on sterilization positives, as I expect some with veterinary backgrounds would attest to - simply the one which dog park goers might be most concerned about (in my experience, at least).

Where all this comes in to play for me is that in rural areas there’s a lot more room for activities and less probability to run into ill-fitting or unsocialized/untrained dogs - thus mitigating a lot of social risk.

I think of it as a handicap but city dog ownership is not unattainable, given reasonably modest resources and hard work. I’ve lived in and raised dogs in both urban and rural areas, fwiw

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#167
post #152
post #142

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My father-in-law had an intact Labrador Retriever show dog who escaped over a high fence and swam across a large river in order to visit a bitch in heat. They found him days later, filthy and with some minor injuries. The instinct to reproduce will drive dogs to do crazy things.

It’s not only dogs. I remember some stupid shit I did as a teenager.

A friend in military told us that as part of their training they are given injections to curb sexual desire. They can't even masturbate. Its given regularly every month or so until their training is complete.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#168
post #152
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father-in-law had an intact Labrador Retriever show dog who escaped over a high fence and swam across a large river in order to visit a bitch in heat. They found him days later, filthy and with some minor injuries. The instinct to reproduce will drive dogs to do crazy things.

It’s not only dogs. I remember some stupid shit I did as a teenager.

I'm an adult male and if it weren't for the corporate soul sucking 9-5 job eating away most of my time and energy I'd still engage in stupid shit just for mating.

I think males are biologically programed to stay in heat way longer than females, at least until the first baby is born, just that modern society has figured how to tame us by placing us in a financial rat race where it all about chasing material things, hobbies and lifestyles or the next big career rather than the next potential partner.

As a kid I never really understood the point Fight Club was trying to make but as an adult, I do now.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#169

The background information is interesting, but the lack of any base rates and the use of apples-to-oranges comparisons makes the author’s argument seem like one made in bad faith. The author omits that 20% of shelter dogs are still euthanized each year, instead using the overall population as the denominator. And the 5,700 dogs being purchased in auction by rescue groups over ten years is pretty insignificant conside…

> Also describing strays as living successfully on their own is absurd. Sure some haven’t starved to death or been crippled by random acts of violence by humans.

In some parts of the world, unowned dogs seem to flourish; for example India has more than 30 million street dogs. However this is not a good thing, since dog on human violence happens too, and 20,000 people in India die of rabies every year. Street dogs are well known for attacking people, so even if the dogs can survive on their own it's still irresponsible to allow that.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hundreds of videos of the said dogs attacking people, the detailed news reports and expert interviews are not a source to back an argument?

The correlation is that for some reason trashy people prefer pit bulls, they don’t train their dogs, and then the breed gets a bad reputation. They have immensely powerful jaws, but are no more likely to use them than any other breed. There is an unfortunate increase in damage per instance but this again is no fault of the breed.

> The correlation is that for some reason trashy people prefer pit bulls,

"For some reason"... there is no mystery here: trashy people are drawn to the premise of dog fighting.

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