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We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

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Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#161
post #3

How can freedom of speech be the downfall of democracy? Surely Facebook and democracy can coexist if we get better at teaching people to think for themselves? I don’t like the idea democracy can only survive if governments censor and remove platforms for spreading information (however false that may be).

> Surely Facebook and democracy can coexist if we get better at teaching people to think for themselves?

There are some serious limitations on that approach.

We have limited time to devote to going into an issue in any depth. We can maybe handle thoughtfully evaluating all sides for one or two issues if we are getting honest information from all sides.

When you have one or more sides deliberately trying to mislead, they have a huge advantage. First, since they aren't burdened by the need to actually be correct, they can generate a wider variety of arguments and do so in greater quantity than those who are arguing in good faith.

Second, we have a variety of built in cognitive biases. The people trying to mislead can purposefully craft their arguments to hit those, increasing the chances we'll believe them.

On top of all that, social media's algorithms for determining what to show us are trying to maximize engagement, and the things that most engage us are the things that fit in with our cognitive biases. They have a huge amount of behavioral data on us, which has made them very good at picking out and prioritizing stuff on our individualized feeds that will hit those biases.

You can't really think for yourself without high quality information, and because they are based on maximizing getting your attention social media tends to mostly show you low quality information. In short, the way social media sites like Facebook are designed makes it nearly impossible to get accurate information from them no matter how much you try to think for yourself.

There was a recent article in Scientific American covering research into this, "Information Overload Helps Fake News Spread, and Social Media Knows It" [1]. HN discussion of that article [2].

[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/information-overl...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25153716

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook isn't "Free Speech" in the traditional sense, it is a massive AI system designed to funnel people towards controversy and lies (because it turns out controversy and lies get the highest engagement).

Mainstream media is no better, look at how many pages of newspapers are dedicated to columnists, editorials and opinions instead of news. Why aren't they being criticised? It's exactly the same principle. In the end it comes down to the fact that people are being conditioned that they should have an opinion or position on everything, because "everything is politics". And many people fall for that and therefore search…

> Why aren't they being criticised?

Because newspapers have editorial boards, ombudsmen, and liability (in the form of libel) for what they print. Facebook has the conceit that it doesn't have any perspective, that it's just a carrier of speech of others. The concern is that Facebook (and YouTube and Twitter) already has preferences (such as for controversy over dry facts) and is developing more (curation through fact checking, etc.).

If Facebook came out and said, "Yeah, we're more or less like Readers Digest but for the internet" I suspect they'll still have detractors, but it will be more of the "I don't like reading Readers Digest" variety, not of the "Someone needs to break up Readers Digest!" one. They might also lose accounts, too, because who wants to write for a paper with clear points of view and biases that work at cross purposes to their own?

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#163
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, assault weapons are a different category, legally and technically, from semi-automatic weapons which are the majority of firearms manufactured and sold today in the U.S. The anti-gun lobby has conflated the terms to push a blanket ban on anything that looks remotely military. But functionally, it's two separate categories and fully automatic weapons require a federal permit that takes about a year.

If you think that's the definition, why not clearly say that instead of playing this "let others guess what your definition is" game? > Yes, assault weapons are a different category, legally and technically, from semi-automatic weapons What's the clear legal definition of an assault weapon? E.g. as referenced elsewhere in the comments here, the federal assault weapons ban clearly talked about "semi-automatic assault…

I think I did clearly say that; what's unclear? The federal assault ban covers fully automatic weapons, not semi-automatic. Here's a pretty good explanation of the differences.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/oct/02/difference-be...

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#164

This person is confusing ranked newsfeeds with free speech. Ranked newsfeeds are the actual poison, because they are their own form of censorship and amplification for exploitative purposes. It’s fine if someone says something horrible or false on the internet, it’s not fine if a ranked newsfeed amplifies that message to millions of people because it’s engaging. This free speech or not argument is a complete straw ma…

I don't understand the obsession some people have with ranked newsfeeds. I don't see what's wrong with showing people content they want. What content that is always depends on the user themselves. If they've liked a lot of horrible stuff before, they'll get more horrible stuff, if they've liked a lot of thoughtful stuff before, they'll get more thoughtful stuff.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#165
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The central point of the article is that Facebook is not free. Yes you can have free speech and democracy but free speech becomes rather more difficult when its biggest medium is a privately controlled monopoly. Fake-news and the like aren't mentioned in the article.

But why does it become more difficult when it's centralised by numerous tech companies and not by numerous media organisations or the government itself? I don't see why FB is any different except it's easier for anyone to share stuff, and I don't see why that stuff should be a risk to democracy.

When a single platform controls a large part of public discourse, without democratic control, and actively stifles competition (the jury's still out on that one, but that is the allegation), then that places a lot of power in private hands.

This doesn't mean that power is being abused (though it gets increasingly hard to tell) but it's hard to call that kind of platform 'free'.

Sure you might be fairly certain that Facebook isn't limiting free speech right now, but the main reason you know this is through other channels. When their monopoly is complete there'd be no way to tell if speech truly is or isn't free.

And of course there's no way to tell if your posts are unpopular because of some well intentioned algorithm, or a more malicious algorithm. At the very least Facebook's incentives don't align with the rest of society.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#166

> The business model is to divert revenue that used to go to newspapers and publishers to themselves. And there you have it. Anything that threatens the position of media companies is always portrayed as an attack against Democracy. If choosing democracy means shutting down the free flow of information between individuals on social media sites like Facebook, then my vote is for Facebook.

This

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#167
post #122

In an earlier era, people's opinions were shaped by a small number of newspapers and newscasts. Some of these old media were so biased and agenda driven that they caused wars. Not that much has changed, except that people now rely on centralized, AI-driven funnels of information and entertainment. Democracy has always been fragile, barely functional, easily corrupted, warped by money. The best and only way to defend…

> a small number That's not correct. There were staggering numbers of them. In 1900 there were 15 English language daily newspapers in New York City alone. The problem with Facebook is monopolization. It's different when you have a ton of places that share information, and some of them are biased in one direction or another, versus when you have just one, and that one actively works to prevent other options from emer…

There are far more news sources available today than in the 20th century. Not only can I read local newspapers and magazines from all over the world, which wasn’t easy to do before the internet, but also there are tons of new digital-only publications and millions of blogs.

In the 1990s in the US, before the internet took off, most people had access to one local paper (two in some cases), maybe an a few local magazines (include “alternative weekly” newspapers), a few local TV and radio stations, PBS and NPR, the 100 or so cable channels their local provider offered, the hundred or so magazines and newspapers the local Borders or Barnes & Noble sold, and whatever magazines and newspapers their library had in the periodicals section. And a lot of this media was owned by a few big corporations like Time Warner, News Corp, Condé Nast, etc.

> versus when you have just one, and that one actively works to prevent other options from emerging.

How has Facebook tried to prevent news outlets from emerging? They benefit hugely from news outlets, and kind of even depend on them for existence. They need the content for people to post and share. New publications like Vox probably owe some of their success to Facebook, and vice versa.

FB might have a lot of power to amplify traffic to certain publications (kind of like the big retail chains did in the 90s only more so), but that’s very different from actively preventing new news outlets from emerging.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#168
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't an awkward exchange of ideas. The problem is industrial-scale disinformation campaigns manipulating public opinion and discrediting every single thing you can imagine, grinding the free exchange of ideas to a halt at every turn. Its a DDOS attack on that very same free exchange of ideas you mention.

How is that different from the newspapers and cable news?

They are not public forums. You me and three other self-appointed bicycle fanatics are not having a lively discussion about cycling shoes in the New York Times, subject to oversight from the New York Times.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#169
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The central point of the article is that Facebook is not free. Yes you can have free speech and democracy but free speech becomes rather more difficult when its biggest medium is a privately controlled monopoly. Fake-news and the like aren't mentioned in the article.

Was TV and radio ever free in that sense then?

In most countries, as far as I'm aware, TV started out as a government controlled medium, which has its own problems but is definitely not privately owned.

And to the best of my knowledge there's still nothing preventing you from buying radio bandwidth. It's not really my area though so I could be wrong.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#170
post #157
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there's the ban on burqa and niqab. In public places. You conveniently did not mention that.

It's banned (not just in France) because there is are existing laws against face-covering and religion is not above that. There is also a perfectly rational thinking behind a reciprocity of rights: if you can see me but I can't see you then we're not equal. There are also fierce debates around the role of women, ensuring equal opportunities in society, and the fact that ideology (whether religious or not) should not…

The french debate on the face-covering ban was well broadcasted internationally, and it was clear to me then that it was about burqas and niqabs. The law came in place when there were thousands of people wearing religious face coverings, not before. I do not agree with the sentiment of your first paragraph, in fact it seems to me that you are being either intentionally misleading or ignorant.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jun/22/islamic-veils-...

He called the burqa "a problem". And he said that somehow it's not a religious symbol (of course it is ...).

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