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A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

nytimes.com

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Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#161

Post by knolax »

sriram_sun wrote: post #28

Do shops like these mostly inherited? I'm also aware of Japan's adult adoptions. Is there pressure on the next gen. to take over the family business? I would think yes. In my mind, just imagining operating for a Millennium, these institutions are more temples than businesses. Brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it. Thankfully the practice is not very widespread as I could easily have found myself taking care…

Have a bunch of kids. One of them's bound to be interested in the family business.

Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#162

Post by smukherjee19 »

tasogare wrote: post #160
smukherjee19 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in greater Tokyo for the past 5 years, can speak the language fluently. Added the Tamahide restaurant to visit sometime, thanks! The biggest thing I've felt since moving here: whether or not you can speak and interact in Japanese makes a world of difference. Seriously. I have interacted with expats who have not studied any inkling of Japanese, nor have tried any kind of interactions apart from other expats, an…

> The biggest thing I've felt since moving here: whether or not you can speak and interact in Japanese makes a world of difference. Seriously. Literally right for almost every country: France without knowing French, US without English, Taiwan with Chinese or Taiwanese, Egypt without Arabic... Japan is not special in that regard, save for the fact that most people here have quite a low level of English (which is also…

Indeed you are right, it's true for almost any country in the world. Knowing the local language is a huge plus everywhere!

Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#163

Post by smukherjee19 »

laurieg wrote: post #159
myrandomcomment wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had the same experience. To push down on this the Japanese feel shame in not being able to communicate to you if you do not speak Japanese. It makes them uncomfortable. Being able to manage some basic Japanese helps so much to build a warmer feeling in your interactions. It does not have to be perfect but you have to try. There is a bar I love that is known for not being friendly to non-Japanese. However that…

Perhaps it's a bit reductive, but your story reads like "I went to a restaurant I like and they nearly refused service due to my ethnicity". A similar thing has happened to me and it doesn't make me want to go back.

(This is replying to both your comment and its parent comment.)

I sometimes run into that kind of behavior, especially when my first impression is my looks rather than my voice. But then I think of it like this: they probably have to deal with many foreign customers, "most" of whom cannot speak Japanese. Or they might not have been exposed to many foreigners that they know there are foreigners who can speak Japanese.

At the same time, Japanese society puts consideration for others at one of the higher priorities when interacting with people, and is seen everywhere and highly evaluated by many.

So it feels natural for the person to assume that I, as another one of those foreign people, most likely cannot speak Japanese. Also, they could try speaking to me in Japanese, but it'd be inconsiderate of them if I didn't know Japanese. So many a time the default, and very likely considerate route out is broken English to the best of their abilities.

I know this makes people like us who do know the language a bit bad, but then again, we're still a minority so I wouldn't read too much into it. :)

Of course, if the person in question knows you know Japanese, yet keeps talking to you in English, then it might be better to assume something is not right. :)

Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#164

Post by smukherjee19 »

agar wrote: post #135
smukherjee19 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in greater Tokyo for the past 5 years, can speak the language fluently. Added the Tamahide restaurant to visit sometime, thanks! The biggest thing I've felt since moving here: whether or not you can speak and interact in Japanese makes a world of difference. Seriously. I have interacted with expats who have not studied any inkling of Japanese, nor have tried any kind of interactions apart from other expats, an…

You're 100% right, that if I had better language skills I likely wouldn't have felt as isolated. I did try, and picked up some phrases, but intermittent trips rather than a contiguous multi-year stay made it more difficult. That said, the difference between Japanese and Latin languages does play into the "foreign-ness" I mentioned. My very bad high school/college French is enough to feel comfortable deciphering a lot…

Indeed, I seem to love Japan, haha. Thanks for the kind words!

For sure, do come over for a long term stay (with your partner!) and enjoy Japan. Like all countries, Japan has its own set of problems, but beyond that, it's a wonderful country. :)

Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#165

Post by kwhitefoot »

smukherjee19 wrote: post #121
agar wrote: post #73

A colleague took me to Tamahide restaurant in Tokyo, which opened in 1760 and is known for creating oyakodon, a chicken and egg rice bowl. (Oyakadon translates to "parent and child donburi" which somehow makes eating a combination of chicken and egg a little less appealing). Looking at reviews today, people apparently see the food as a mixed bag - some are clearly disappointed. In my opinion, it was excellent, with t…

Living in greater Tokyo for the past 5 years, can speak the language fluently. Added the Tamahide restaurant to visit sometime, thanks! The biggest thing I've felt since moving here: whether or not you can speak and interact in Japanese makes a world of difference. Seriously. I have interacted with expats who have not studied any inkling of Japanese, nor have tried any kind of interactions apart from other expats, an…

You really don't need to speak much of the local language to get food in a restaurant. I have no experience of Japan but I've spent close to a year in China spread over a dozen trips. I ate in a number of different places, bought silk for my wife, etc., all without being able to speak the local language. My experience is that throwing yourself on the mercy of the the waiter works quite well with some sign language and perhaps a simple phrasebook not just in China but also in Spain. After all the restaurant wants you to come back and to tell your friends how good it is.

Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#166

Post by myrandomcomment »

laurieg wrote: post #159
myrandomcomment wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had the same experience. To push down on this the Japanese feel shame in not being able to communicate to you if you do not speak Japanese. It makes them uncomfortable. Being able to manage some basic Japanese helps so much to build a warmer feeling in your interactions. It does not have to be perfect but you have to try. There is a bar I love that is known for not being friendly to non-Japanese. However that…

Perhaps it's a bit reductive, but your story reads like "I went to a restaurant I like and they nearly refused service due to my ethnicity". A similar thing has happened to me and it doesn't make me want to go back.

I understand it could be looked at that way. The point was that it was not because they do not like foreigners, but because they feel they cannot uphold their service standards if they cannot communicate. Maintaining the expected quality service and reputation for that excellence is the only thing that matters and not doing so would bring shame. It is a very uniquely Japanese view on things and I do not in this case see it as racist. The reality is that the Japanese think very differently then most western (EU/US) and it can be very hard for outsiders to understand or even relate.

Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#167

Post by threatofrain »

Barrin92 wrote: post #66
threatofrain wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maturity means different things for people at different income levels. I've seen young children mature by managing a real estate portfolio, and then moving onto greater relations and responsibilities. I've seen other children mature by rotting in a failing Filipino bakery.

maturity has nothing to do with your income level. Maturation is the integration of the individual into a community and the establishment of mutual responsibility. You can be livelong rich and at the age of 70 have not progressed one day at all, and you can be poor and be well integrated. The purpose of these Japanese companies is the latter, integrate into society in a way that strengthens the community they surroun…

Yet the maturity we speak of here are the stories of people stepping into rich, high responsibility community relations, ones paved by their parents.

When you own real estate and don’t work with a management company, that means you deal with tenants yourself. Yes, collecting rent checks is a part of some stories of maturing. Ethnic restaurants often serve as community vehicles for immigration, and will ingratiate yourself with the ethnic community. You will also have a different perspective on the ethnic role of business, and of course when you own such vehicles you also take over your folks relationships. It would be selfish to abandon all the goodwill and debts your parents leave behind, both material and social.

And for the article, we have people inheriting a 1000 year old institution. Yes, we have different stories of what we expect from our young men and women based on where they came, and we often expect that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

The responsibility which is narrated by the article is one of humble yielding before the call of legacy.

Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#168

Post by iratewizard »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #122
kiddico wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, like work you want to do. Imagine everyone around you is allowed the opportunity to choose their career. You however are the son of a plumber, and have no choice but to be a plumber. This plumbing business is 1000 years old! Why throw away the family name?! Well, because I'd rather not be a plumber and I'm perfectly capable of something else.

It's not that simple.

It is for the simple minded

Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#169

Post by munificent »

lostcolony wrote: post #67
munificent wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. But at the same time, for many people, what they want to do is to carry on a legacy and contribute to something larger than themselves. A culture that forces all young people to build from scratch denies those opportunities just as surely as a culture that forces everyone to follow in their parent' footsteps denies opportunities to start afresh.

I think it really depends on the legacy. I mean...how many of the misty eyed people commenting are doing the same thing one of their parents do/did, or wishing they were? I certainly am not.

I am not either. But I also would not want to make any moral claims that would make it harder for those who do want to follow some legacy.

And, honestly, my disconnection to my past and structures larger than myself is a source of unhappiness for me. I don't know if I would necessarily advocate for my own life choices. I think I made the best choices I could at the time based on what I knew then, but there are real downsides to building a life more or less from scratch.

Re: A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old

#170

Post by samatman »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #151
ardy42 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The documentary Jiro Dreams of Sushi has a poignant commentary on this. Jiro's oldest son is expected to eventually take over Jiro's sushi place, so as a result essentially is toiling for his father into old age. On the other hand, somewhat ironically Jiro's younger son actually has more freedom, so he strikes out on his own pretty early and has his own very successful sushi joint. IIRC, that's wrong. The documenta…

Your last sentence is what I often feel about (usually) Japanese arts and crafts, but I always get a pang of jealousy of sorts, because I don't feel like I or anyone in "the west" can live like that - sure, there's sayings like "do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life" and all, but in reality, we all need to earn a living, contribute to society, and somehow min/max everything we do - maximize profit…

I'm glad you included that last sentence.

The West includes the Amish, where inheriting your father's farm, and with it a centuries old tradition, is the norm.

Meanwhile, Japan underwent modernity just like everyone else, and there, the modal (male) life story is: get a lifetime job straight out of college, and work insane hours for the rest of your life, or don't, and never get a job worth having.

There's a lot to learn from Japan, particularly about excellence in craftsmanship, and it's easy to romanticize this, particularly for those of us from countries which are only a couple hundred years old.

But I've been to a pub in Nottingham, ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem, which claims to have been founded in 1189 (superb ale by the way). Swiss watchmakers, French cognac distillers, Chartreuse, even Harvard: all of these things are closer to that tradition of continuity and and craftsmanship than the starving artist stereotype.

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