New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression • Hacker News Board

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#161

Post by rland » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 3:19 AM UTC

throwaway17824 wrote: post #67

rland wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. The structure of our society actively deprives people from human connection which is essential to happiness. Individuals do suffer from depression at different rates, but it pops up the same way popcorn pops when you turn the heat on. The direct cause is the atomization of modern life, not some chemical imbalance in the brain. The reason people treat depression as an individual problem to be addre…

While lack of human connection can be one cause or contributing factor for depression in individual cases, and may make a lot of people "depressed" in the informal coloquial sense, the notion that major depressive disorder across the spectrum and across society is singularly caused by lack of human interaction (or singularly caused by anything at all) is not a notion evidenced by any literature on depression I'm awar…

Of course therapists don't define it that way... their definition is limited by what the treatment options are. Those options basically amount to prescribing drugs or becoming a friend for hire, not changing the structure of society.

And there are plenty of therapists (and researchers) who would definitely say that the quality of the relationship with a depressed patient makes or breaks treatment, in many cases it actually is the distinguishing factor. At the very least, it's a necessary one.

"The literature" isn't even clear on what major depressive disorder is. Well, the clinical definition is clear: literally sadness/low mood for at least 2 weeks. But what does that mean?

I guess what I really mean to say here is that we have essentially created a situation where people are pushed toward being alone. Then when a whole bunch of them feel empty about their state of being, we assign the label of "depressed" on them and give them drugs that are only barely effective. The lucky ones can afford to buy someone who basically takes the place of a close friend or parent. We have no framework to describe this state of affairs because every single one of us only has our permanently modern society as a point of reference.

It's easy to forget that the human brain is not designed to live the way we live. It's designed to spend every waking moment together with a very small group/family, always outdoors together, always doing something entirely tangible and physical together. Seeing a stranger was a rare occurrence. Imagine that!

"Sadness" happens when someone close dies. "Depression" happens when a huge number of human relationships that the brain needs get replaced by vastly inferior alternatives -- coworkers, social media, video game friends, service workers, etc. Nothing else but modern society creates this.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#162

Post by danaris » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 3:38 AM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

Someone I know well has suffered from major depressive episodes effectively since she was a baby—and no, she didn't suffer from a broken home, uncaring parents, or any of the things that could have reasonable been expected to lead to such a thing at such an age.

So yeah, tell me how depression has no neurological root, and is purely a result of a dysfunctional relationship to society, when it can affect someone effectively from birth.

She is watching the emerging study of psychedelics for mental illness with great anticipation and hope. Nothing else has done more than reduce the frequency of symptoms. (She actually started trying IV ketamine a few years ago, when it became available, and it has helped to reduce both the frequency and severity of symptoms, but not eliminate them entirely.)

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#163

Post by golergka » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 3:38 AM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

Feeling down is not always a medical condition; if it's an adequate reaction to the conditions you're in, it's not something to be cured or treated. May be in your case, or in cases you're taking about those people felt depressed because they didn't have enough social interaction, and they fixed it by being around other people more: then it's not a condition, just your brain doing exactly what it's supposed to.

Depression, on the other hand, is feeling down without any adequate reason to do so. If your life is objectively quite okay, save for depression itself, but you constantly feel as if you've lost a loved one, then it's a medical condition. It's like feeling physical pain when you're not actually getting hurt.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#164

Post by austincheney » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 3:44 AM UTC

> A new study of 24 adults with major depression finds that two doses of the psychedelic substance psilocybin, given with supportive psychotherapy, produced rapid and large reductions in depressive symptoms.

Notice that therapy is required. What are the odds people will look for the convenience of a pill while completely ignoring any required therapy and then blame everything else but themselves?

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#165

Post by centimeter » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 3:57 AM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

If DMN inhibition makes you feel more connected and less depressed, I would expect constant attention-grabbing distractions like cell phones to have the same positive effect - but they certainly don't.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#166

Post by cam_l » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 4:04 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #159

cam_l wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, agree with everything you said (and it must be frustrating to deal with poptart* psychology like this). >but it works for an awful lot of people I know CBT is awfully popular on HN. But it is worth reading into the stats on CBT. Even if you take them at face value, it certainly does not work for everyone. It is of course, most effective when there is a clear cause and effect, very effective with anxiety, and a…

>There have been more studies on CBT than any other form of therapy, and those studies suffer from the same replication crisis that the rest of social science research does. More studies showing the same results means they aren't suffering from the replication crisis, even if the exact same study isn't being replicated. CBT isn't for everyone, that is true. And you shouldn't worry or blame yourself if it didn't work,…

Seriously?! I never claimed it is junk science.. didn't even allude to it. I certainly wasn't casting doubt on research figures where they have been replicated and proven.

Truth is, some CBT studies have repeatedly passed replication and others yet have failed. CBT studies in lots of areas where it is used have shown relatively low efficacy, but close to alternative options. Even across anxiety disorders, where is it most effective, it is with an average-ish 70-80% success, and often only a few points different with alternative options. Meta studies have shown it to be ineffective within certain sub-cohorts, even in general areas where it is shown to be effective. Lots of CBT studies are performed differently or with different cohorts to how or with whom they are instituted in practice.

None of this means it is junk science, it just means you have to be very careful to understand the precise limitations of the science. You cannot separate the outcomes you like from the replication issue, you have to test it all. You also cannot generalise the very real successes of CBT across areas where they have not been shown to be effective, or shown to be ineffective. It is worth keeping these things in mind.

This information is almost never shown to clients. Clients are told 'CBT works', with the implication (or outright claim) that if it doesn't work for you it is your fault. It is popular with clients and it is popular with the profession, because it sets expectations early, it is cheap, it is targeted, and it works for the majority of people with the majority of issues people seek counselling for (ie. anxiety and depression). If this doesn't work for you, and this is all your counsellor offers, they are doing a massive disservice.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#167

Post by unishark » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 4:24 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #159

cam_l wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, agree with everything you said (and it must be frustrating to deal with poptart* psychology like this). >but it works for an awful lot of people I know CBT is awfully popular on HN. But it is worth reading into the stats on CBT. Even if you take them at face value, it certainly does not work for everyone. It is of course, most effective when there is a clear cause and effect, very effective with anxiety, and a…

>There have been more studies on CBT than any other form of therapy, and those studies suffer from the same replication crisis that the rest of social science research does. More studies showing the same results means they aren't suffering from the replication crisis, even if the exact same study isn't being replicated. CBT isn't for everyone, that is true. And you shouldn't worry or blame yourself if it didn't work,…

> More studies showing the same results means they aren't suffering from the replication crisis, even if the exact same study isn't being replicated.

Not specific to CBT, but as a general point, replication crises are behind the scenes. Publication bias means only positive results get published, even if it's only the occasional lucky studies (or ones with overt cheating or innocent bad statistics) which come out positive. Researchers know about it and grumble privately, because they wasted months or years of effort before figuring out it's largely false. But this knowledge isn't generally what goes into archival publications.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#168

Post by Synaesthesia » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 4:33 AM UTC

drummer wrote: post #153

Depression is a logical and natural reaction to something fucked in a person's environment. The proper solution is to fix the environment, not to drug yourself into living in a dreamstate. Quite frankly, the world being the way it is today, you should be worried about yourself if you are not depressed. Again, ignoring reality is not the solution.

Have you ever taken psilocybin/mushrooms? It's quite a remarkable experience. It makes you more sensitive in some respects, far from "drugging yourself into a dreamstate"

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#169

Post by Balgair » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 4:39 AM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

I believe it was the late and great George Carlin that said something along the lines of:

"Before you go on any powerful psychoactive medication, just do a quick head count of all the people around you. Are most of them assholes? You may want to just take a nice long vacation, permanently"

P.S. If anyone has the link to that part of whatever stand-up it was, that would be really great to see!

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#170

Post by Balgair » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 4:42 AM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #54

Full disclosure, I have severe clinical depression. Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically. I can appreciate wanting high standards, but that doesn't mean banning everything that doesn't fit the neat mold we use in other cases. Also, suicide is the leading cause of death for multiple age/sex demographic group…

Hey, just want to say, thanks for the comment. I hope you are getting the help you need. It's not easy these days, even for us 'normal' nerds, so thanks for being here.