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Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

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Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#161
post #2

And this is why it's so important to maintain basic civility to everyone, regardless of political views.

It's a nice ideal, but once the views become too extreme, it's not practical. Not many people will maintain basic civility towards a person telling them they don't deserve basic rights for example.

Put that way it sounds compelling but if we look into what the rights are and the kind of rights (Isiah Berlin's framing of rights as negative or positive) then it becomes more complex. Perhaps you have a specific example of people being told they don't deserve basic rights that's a bit more specific?

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cato's leadership struggle in 2012 took it from a strongly-right-leaning but fundamentally intelligent and rational policy organization, to one step above the John Birch Society and a bare GOP stump organization. I don't care one way or another about banning, but yeah, people really should not put any weight into what comes out of it today.

I'm not complaining about the downvotes but given that my comment contains significant substance about the Cato Institute, I would appreciate more feedback. Are you downvoting because you think the leadership struggle in 2012 didn't affect it, or because you also think the JBS is a serious policy organization?

I didn't downvote it (and I very rarely downvote anything other than spam), but your comment is precisely the sort of ad hominem dismissal that this thread is complaining about. A glance at the blogs on cato.org shows a pro-business editorial line which is perfectly well aligned with the chamber of commerce wing in both parties. It is very anti-Trumpian and somewhat anti-Biden. I am not a huge follower of the Cato Institute, but in my recollection, this is the same type of stuff that could be found there 20 years ago.

Sometimes Cato has useful studies or data, and then it's worth reading. It's a moderate, academic, economics-colored point of view on the world. I wouldn't call it exciting, but this kind of complete dismissal in a thread about dismissal and silencing of moderate voices apparently looks silly to some people.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#163

I would absolutely be denied opportunities for projects, publicity, promotion, and advancement in my field if I were known to have political views that deviated from the norm in my industry, which I will state for the record is hard left. Consequently, I express no personal non-work related opinions not only at work but in fact not even with “friendlies,” as loose lips sink ships. It is a shitty way to live, given ho…

I lean libertarian (although I hold some things things that are left and some right), so as you can imagine my views are not orthodox and would conflict with official statements by C-suite people. In this climate I absolutely express no political opinion no matter how well I could present the logic. I neither agree nor disagree with them so as not to give them a tell.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#164
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but why not stuff like immigration, stances on environmental regulation, income tax rates on high earners, gun rights... You've gotta agree that those fall under the moderate umbrella a bit more right? I've lived/worked in some very conservative environments and I don't think anyone would've walked along with the race IQ path.

My comment was in relation to the topic of the parent comment, which is why I mentioned it at all. Income tax rates and environmental regulation very rarely get brought up in conjunction with why there are gaps in racial outcome that aren't the result of racism. I think we can both agree that the things I mentioned are more more on point with arguments pertaining to racial outcomes, even if you completely disagree wi…

That's fair! I think I may have confused you with the OP that responded as such to the moderate point.

For what it's worth, I think you may be surprised how much you can discuss on this topic without crossing "the line" for most people. I think that if partisanship wasn't as divisive as it currently is than you'd be able to discover a lot more common ground with people.

.... though definitely not online.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#165
post #41
post #15

Does this mean thath the polls for this presidential election are even more wrong than they were in 2016?

That's a good question and no one really knows the answer, but we will have the answer Nov 4. If your implication is true, I think there is going to have to be a serious re-assessment by the establishment regarding the divergence of their politics vs the populace --and there would be a realization that propaganda only goes so far and coercion is the missing ingredient. If the establishment is right, then obviously th…

> but we will have the answer Nov 4.

Things I've learnt in the last 2 months, Americans have real problems counting votes. I'm not talking about disputed votes (hanging chads), I'm talking about real actual undisputable votes. Also seem to be problems with the concept of free and fair voting - people having to queue for hours to vote is a sign of voter suppression, not of a healthy democracy.

In the UK, we vote either in person on the day (from 6AM until 10PM), or in advance by post (which has to arrive at the designated location by the time polls close, either by post, or by dropping into a voting station). If a charismatic person in a pub gets everyone to go voting you can get a rush just before the polls close as 300 people turn up, but an hour would be extreme.

Postal votes are opened daily in the run up to the election in front of observers from the various parties as they come in, verified, and stored in a sealed box.

On the actual day the in person boxes are sealed at 10pm (or slightly later if people are still queueing) and transported to a central counting location.

These counting locations tend to count 50,000 at a time, and in my experience 50-100 people do the counting (in front of observers from the parties), the counts start almost straight away, and the first results come in after an hour or so. Most results are in after about 6 hours, and unless there are transport problems (storms preventing votes from islands getting where they need to go) everywhere has declared within about 10 hours.

Now the US has more than the 32 million votes cast in the UK's December election, but this method scales easily enough.

So why does it take days for votes to be counted?

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#166
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not destruction of the middle ground, but rather hiding of the middle ground. Moderates do not feel safe to express moderate views for fear of being ostracized and cancelled.

Do you have any links to examples of moderate views that will get one cancelled? I would be really interested in this topic.

Being pro abortion rights and pro gun rights. Thinking that private companies should have to respect the right to freedom of speech as much as the government (especially when they hold a monopoly on “public spaces”). Thinking that perhaps capitalism is not the cure to all of society’s ills - that it even causes some of those problems. Thinking that socialism is - practically speaking - impossible due to basic human nature.

Basically, holding views from both parties, and not just toeing one party’s line.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#167
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question and no one really knows the answer, but we will have the answer Nov 4. If your implication is true, I think there is going to have to be a serious re-assessment by the establishment regarding the divergence of their politics vs the populace --and there would be a realization that propaganda only goes so far and coercion is the missing ingredient. If the establishment is right, then obviously th…

> but we will have the answer Nov 4. Things I've learnt in the last 2 months, Americans have real problems counting votes. I'm not talking about disputed votes (hanging chads), I'm talking about real actual undisputable votes. Also seem to be problems with the concept of free and fair voting - people having to queue for hours to vote is a sign of voter suppression, not of a healthy democracy. In the UK, we vote eithe…

It will "take days" because it's expected mailed in votes will arrive after the Nov. 3 in jurisdictions where mailed-in votes are expected to be consequential.

So a mailed in vote that needs to be tallied may not arrive to be counted till Nov 5 or 6 or 9 (depending on state deadline).

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#168
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was in relation to the topic of the parent comment, which is why I mentioned it at all. Income tax rates and environmental regulation very rarely get brought up in conjunction with why there are gaps in racial outcome that aren't the result of racism. I think we can both agree that the things I mentioned are more more on point with arguments pertaining to racial outcomes, even if you completely disagree wi…

That's fair! I think I may have confused you with the OP that responded as such to the moderate point. For what it's worth, I think you may be surprised how much you can discuss on this topic without crossing "the line" for most people. I think that if partisanship wasn't as divisive as it currently is than you'd be able to discover a lot more common ground with people. .... though definitely not online.

I definitely agree with you on that. Most people are far more likely to have a productive discussion when at least one party goes out of their way to be nuanced and careful in how they word things as well as the discussion not taking place in a performative environment (online or in front of other people.) It is definitely a lesson I have learned over time and through my own biases and misbehavior causing myself unneeded problems that were/are quiet foolish in hindsight.

With that said, all of these topics are not worth getting too into, since even 100% agreement on HBD or esoteric human rights philosophy topics doesn't really accomplish much. I have arrived at a sort of internal understanding that it doesn't matter if most people would disagree with me on this stuff. Also, if I find the common perspective to be ridiculous or stupid that doesn't really matter or entitle me to pressing the issue when it doesn't matter. What genuinely matters is finding common humanity/shared goals that are mutually beneficial and not getting bent out of shape over stuff that doesn't really matter, which in this case is trivia pertaining to generalized (which is practically useless individually) racial outcomes. Hopefully I've explained myself clearly and shown that I don't have any ill will intended towards you or anybody who has different opinions or may even hate or take offense at how I see the world. Have a nice Sunday :)

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#169
post #12

we're posting Cato Institute links now?

Let me guess, they don't align with "strong liberal" views so any controversial part of their past makes them cancel-able ("ban" as you say). I now feel like I will hesitate to submit a Cato article in the future, and I don't even know what is wrong with them! Basically exactly what the article discusses.

To be fair, HN does remove a ton of political posts. If they didn't, this tech forum would be overrun with irrelevant political discussion.

Conservative think tanks posts can definitely stimulate good discussion, but if you don't moderate consistently, the community will eventually form a hivemind politically.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#170
post #95
post #2

And this is why it's so important to maintain basic civility to everyone, regardless of political views.

"Do we have to show tolerance to the intolerant?" is not the newest question in the book, and historians will probably tell you that in fact free societies stay free if they draw a clear line what is unaccepted behaviour. Liberty is always a balance act, because if you give bad actors freedom in the name of tolerance they will use it to reduce the freedom of weaker actors within society. If you live in a "survival of…

The problem is who gets to decide what is unacceptable.

If you look at social media, they paint with a very broad brush.

...such a broad brush and so will to employ any means necessary to silence opposition, that they begin to resemble the fascists they purport to oppose.

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