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Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

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Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#161

Post by frereubu »

What I find positive in this outcome is that Jeremy Howard challenged the organisation to live up to their principles, and they are apparently going to do so. Without the CoC, this would not have been such a clear-cut issue.

For those who would do away with CoCs entirely, I suggest you read the HN perennial The Tyrrany Of Structurelessness: https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

CoCs are complex in many ways, but it's much better to have a formal process that allows people to be held to account rather than a structureless void which enables people to discriminate without the ability to challenge them to something they've explicitly signed up to.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#162

Post by lifeisstillgood »

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #139

This all reminds me of a talk Justice Scalia once gave. The gist was that the US Constitution isn't very good compared to a lot of countries' equivalent document. For example, the Soviet's Bill of Rights was undoubtedly better. The important issue is how you structure the governing bodies and separate powers. If you don't do this correctly then your Constitution, or bill of rights, or Code of Conduct, is worthless. I…

What fascinates me is that all companies and organisations (at a certain scale) will have to decide a governance structure that is better than - that guy is in charge.

Co-ops are one step forward but that was basically a century ago and stopped. What's the 21 C answer?

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#163

Post by xab31 »

sigmaprimus wrote: post #138
xab31 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a very effective response from Jeremy. He clearly describes his side of the story and convincingly explains why he thought he did nothing wrong. What is a little more troubling is that he (A) describes codes of conduct in detail and repeatedly affirms his allegiance to the general idea behind CoCs, including describing "previous sexual assault allegations" as "behaviors" he "strongly agrees" should be stopped.…

>>>", because he now has a "previous CoC violation allegation" on his permanent record, regardless of his acquittal." I wonder how much this has affected his lifetime earning potential? Couple that with the "public apology" seems like an open and shut lawsuit that many lawyers would be happy to take on contingency.

EDIT: My reading was wrong, see below.

The thing that seemed to me oddest about all this is that Jeremy says the committee spoke to two reporters before hearing his side of the story, and before issuing a judgment. It is not totally clear if they were speaking to those two reporters about his case.

I would imagine that an obvious way for CoC committees to minimize their own liability would be to at least avoid talking to reporters before they have issued a judgment. Really, the process should be totally private until a guilty judgment has been made, and if the person is declared innocent, then the whole thing should disappear without ever having been made public.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#164

Post by 1propionyl »

lr wrote: post #149

To all of the people who hate CoCs: Just don't patronize any forum, software repo, or conference that has them. Not so easy to do, right? Same thing with people who get harassed all the time: It's not so easy for them to complain and have anyone take them seriously. Are CoCs perfect? Absolutely not. But allowing decades of harassment to continue unfettered until the most perfect solution is found, is not going to wor…

The problem here isn't primarily the Code of Conduct itself, but rather how it was applied (and by extension those applying it).

The real challenge to building better communities isn't writing up a list of things that people shouldn't do. (Though that is a first step.)

The real challenge is building (and maintaining) social structures, culture, and institutions that members trust to apply the rules fairly and prudently.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#165

Post by sillysaurusx »

g42gregory wrote: post #134

This apology rings hollow to me. A person of Jeremy Howard's statue was able to raise the issue in the media and get it resolved. I would like to understand what would happen to a person who is not of a Jeremy Howard's statue and does not have such a access to the public discourse?

https://en.meming.world/images/en/thumb/5/5d/James_Franco_Fi...

Sadly, it seems true. If you don't have an audience, no one will care what happens to you.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#166

Post by eckza »

Xavdidtheshadow wrote: post #20
GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I don't mean this as an attack, but I'm guessing you haven't been harassed/given unwanted attention at a conference. It's easy to see codes of conduct as draconian or unnecessary if you can't empathize with the people they're designed to protect. I'm not saying the CoC system is perfect or that there aren't false positives, but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

Your statement presumes that:

1) a Code of Conduct is necessary to enforce order 2) a Code of Conduct will prevent or discourage disorder

I think that 1) and 2) are both demonstrably false.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#167

Post by ggoo »

marcinzm wrote: post #137

Am I reading this correctly? It seems to say that Jeremy is still considered guilty of a CoC violation but if he appeals then the board will hear it (rather than the committee). So Jeremey has to file an appeal or the decision will stand? So the onus to fix this is on Jeremy who seems so exhausted by this whole process that he's quit conference talks? That seems a response that lacks any sense of empathy to Jeremy. e…

Yep, this is a non-apology apology.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#168

Post by ac2u »

frereubu wrote: post #161

What I find positive in this outcome is that Jeremy Howard challenged the organisation to live up to their principles, and they are apparently going to do so. Without the CoC, this would not have been such a clear-cut issue. For those who would do away with CoCs entirely, I suggest you read the HN perennial The Tyrrany Of Structurelessness: https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm CoCs are complex in many ways, b…

It wasn’t the CoC that resolved the issue in this instance, it was the fact that the he had the community clout to raise the profile of his mistreatment.

Arguably it wouldn’t have been an issue if the CoC didn’t exist.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#169

Post by Yetanfou »

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I'll try to refine your argument a bit: codes of conduct have tended to become a distraction because of the sudden onslaught of such from a specific, highly politicised group of people who have used the opportunity to try to enforce their way of looking at the world upon others by getting their 'code of conduct' - which reads like a political pamphlet - adopted by a number of high-visibility projects. Having a code of conduct in itself does not need to be distracting as long as that code is politically neutral and above all short and concise. A good example of such a code of conduct is the following:

don't be a jerk

Everybody knows what this means. Nearly everybody will agree on how to behave.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#170

Post by btilly »

xab31 wrote: post #163
sigmaprimus wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>", because he now has a "previous CoC violation allegation" on his permanent record, regardless of his acquittal." I wonder how much this has affected his lifetime earning potential? Couple that with the "public apology" seems like an open and shut lawsuit that many lawyers would be happy to take on contingency.

EDIT: My reading was wrong, see below. The thing that seemed to me oddest about all this is that Jeremy says the committee spoke to two reporters before hearing his side of the story, and before issuing a judgment. It is not totally clear if they were speaking to those two reporters about his case. I would imagine that an obvious way for CoC committees to minimize their own liability would be to at least avoid talkin…

I believe that "reporters" here means "one who reports a violation" and not "a reporter who can be expected to publish the story".
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