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Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

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Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#161

Post by maerF0x0 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #113
username90 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge demand for gig work and not a great demand for gig workers, exploring more ways to create demand for gig workers is a good thing. Lots of people don't want a stable job and I don't see why we should force them to get one just to feed themselves.

>Lots of people don't want a stable job yeah, don't you just know tons of people who love to have no job security, don't know how much they'll make on any given day or whether they'll be unemployed in a month? Of course people love stable jobs, some people however are dependent on gig work because of institutional failure on several fronts within California in particular. The solution to this is, as Russ Ackoff put i…

> yeah, don't you just know tons of people who love to have no job security, don't know how much they'll make on any given day or whether they'll be unemployed in a month?

parent probably meant something like "consistent and mandatory" more than "uncertain.

Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#162

Post by maerF0x0 »

amacneil wrote: post #82
tpmoney wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like this would have been the perfect opportunity to become the first state to decouple benefits from employment. Recognize that gig jobs are going to become more of a thing in various ways, and set up state sponsored benefit plans for gig workers. Start a mini UBI that covers 4 weeks PTO at the median California wage, open up medicaid eligibility, etc. If the problem is these people don't have benefit…

I don't even see why the state should fund anything here. Healthcare is available for contract workers already (obamacare/covered CA). PTO is irrelevant for contract work, and not just rideshare/gig contracts (the whole point is that you can accept work when it is convenient for you). The only potential area of "benefits" I can see that might need some rethinking for the gig workforce is sick leave (I don't want ride…

This is easily handled by having initiation periods. For example a Canadian cannot just return to Canada, after not paying taxes for years, and get immediate free healthcare.

Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#163

Post by maerF0x0 »

acadien wrote: post #3

I am so against prop22 it pains me so here I am ranting on the internet. What's going on is a negotiation between the state and these companies that are able to take advantage of a gap in how insurance and other benefits work. Instead of actively negotiating with the state, Uber/Lyft/Doordash and many others have simply asked to maintain the status quo, screw the drivers, just business as usual. Drivers do not get be…

It seems to me Prop22 is aiming to address the issue on the wrong policy.

To me the minimum wage policy should be updated to include healthcare insurance as compensation, and possibly raise the minimum wage as well.

That way those companies w/o health insurance have to pay more $$ per hour and those with health insurance are equally competitive to those who do not.

Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#164

Post by maerF0x0 »

I would be interested in knowing how much of a wealth transfer this is to the drivers vs how much californian employee equity will be destroyed (think of all the Uber employees who are paid equity)?

Maybe it's better to just increase payroll tax by 1% (or N) and direct transfer it to the lowest paid workers in the state?

Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#165

Post by jerry80 »

umvi wrote: post #137
jerry80 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand why drivers should be considered employees, or even independent contractors, to Uber. Maybe someone can fill me in. To me, Uber seems more like a marketplace that connects buyers and sellers of a particular service (rides). If I sell something on eBay, should eBay consider me an employee and give me benefits? What about if I sell my service on Fiverr or Upwork? How is that Upwork any differe…

The difference is that on ebay you get to set the price of what you are selling. With Uber you don't. Uber gets to decide how much the ride costs, not you.

So if Uber implemented a bid/ask type pricing system that the driver had control over, people would drop the employee demand? I don't buy it.

Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#166

Post by takeda »

username90 wrote: post #152
takeda wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absolutely untrue. The drivers I know are strongly against it.

They could just stop driving for uber if they wanted, I don't why they need politicians to force uber out to do it.

yep, because if you don't like that workplace doesn't provide benefits for you can just quit.

Being a driver for Uber or Lyft is hardly a career.

Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#167

Post by umvi »

jerry80 wrote: post #165
umvi wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that on ebay you get to set the price of what you are selling. With Uber you don't. Uber gets to decide how much the ride costs, not you.

So if Uber implemented a bid/ask type pricing system that the driver had control over, people would drop the employee demand? I don't buy it.

No, if uber implemented bid/ask pricing then their case that drivers are independent contractors would hold more water

Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#168

Post by rhizome »

supercollision wrote: post #148
jkestner wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was always the plan. Operate at a loss on both riders/drivers until you can turn the screws. In the past, you could say you'll just switch to Lyft, but here they're working together. That should tell you something about who they're competing with. Their drivers.

I heard one plan was to gain market share and eventually replace drivers with self-driving vehicles altogether, but I should note I'm spreading at least third-degree hearsay.

That's the stock-juicing story, but self-driving cars were never going to work. At least not in time to support the company in that way.

Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#169

Post by rhizome »

EdJiang wrote: post #117
acadien wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your response but respectfully disagree. (1) you posted above completely miss-states the facts. From the voter pamphlet text itself; "A YES vote on this measure means: App-based rideshare and delivery companies could hire drivers as independent contractors. Drivers could decide when, where, and how much to work but would not get standard benefits and protections that businesses must provide employees." I…

The text I quoted is directly from the ballot measure. If you click my link then click on "Text of Proposed Law (PDF)" in the sidebar, you will find: > 7454. Healthcare Subsidy. (a) Consistent with the average contributions required under the Affordable Care Act (ACA), a network company shall provide a quarterly health care subsidy to qualifying app-based drivers as set forth in this section. An app-based driver that…

No matter the nuances, the 7/8th modification provision is a deal-breaker, period. It casts the whole measure in a crooked light, which history advises us should come as no surprise.

Re: Uber: “Yes on Prop 22” popups shown to drivers

#170

Post by rhizome »

supercollision wrote: post #149
EdJiang wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post has a lot of misinformation I'd like to correct. What you're stating about the current situation is factually incorrect. 1. Prop 22 gives app-based workers healthcare, minimum wage, and other protections and benefits. From the text: "For an average of 25 hours or more per week of engaged time in the calendar quarter, a payment greater than or equal to 100 percent of the average ACA contribution for the appl…

Thanks for surfacing the info on health care. EdJiang, please note this isn't to you directly (either as a poster or Uber employee), my engineer-brain is sort of thinking of loopholes and unintended consequences. I'm not expressing an opinion here. How many "real" working hours does it take to get 25 working hours? I only found one reference (Berkeley Law) that estimated 1/3 of the time is downtime, so very roughly 4…

>More cynically, would these companies be able to distribute work such that rides are given to drivers with more "buffer" before hitting these ACA payouts?

We already know the answer to this, from how Walmart and others schedule their employees to just under full-time status in order to avoid paying them benefits. If Walmart is doing it, it will be considered to be an orthodox business practice and Uber/Lyft/DoorDash/etc. have probably already planned for it as a contingency.

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