Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

Post by andi999 » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 2:35 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #155

jacobr1 wrote: post #136

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My favourite example came from my 9th grade physics class, our textbook told a story that attempted to teach scientific method. Imagine a soda vending machine. Now imagine that I tell you that when you insert money and press the buttons, small goblins are can see what buttons are being pressed, take the money and it put it in a box, and then hand you the selected soda. The textbook even had helpful diagrams that seem…

I mean, one of the first major papers about supercapacitors from back in the late 50s, early 60s, something around that, included a line like "we don't know what's actually going on inside this component when we use it this way, but it sure does store a lot of energy, here's how to make one". There's nothing shocking or unreasonable or even old-fashioned about understanding what something does before we wonder why it…

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

sjy wrote: post #130

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #124

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It wouldn't take a complex material to recognize a previous civilization. Their civil engineering activities would give them away completely. Archaeologists can read worked surfaces with amazing skill. E.g. a bed of pebbles could be a lake bed, a road surface, a floor inside a building, a foundation, and there's ways to distinguish them. Unless the soil was erased/reformed completely there would be a record of almost…

Geologic time is certainly enough to erase evidence of worked soils. It spans billions of years, the destruction and formation of continents, and multiple global mass extinctions. Archaeology concerns only the last few million years of hominid activity.

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #164

mongol wrote: post #150

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How will asphalt and concrete appear in the geological record? Would it not be identifiable? If we can recognize fossilized bones, a future civilization should civilisation able to recognize concrete with steel rebar inside, no?

Abandoned asphalt roads quickly return to nature. I remember some disused highways near me that were flaking and crumbling away after only 30 years. So bad that you'd have to walk your bike on them. As for rebar, if any water were to get in there repeatedly it would all just rust away. The specifics of the environment play huge here. Anything in a freeze-thaw cycle would get obliterated. Dry and cool areas would do b…

Post by mongol » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #166

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #165

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Returning to nature is relative. The presence of long-chain petrochemicals in layers where they don't belong, would last for millions of years. And is evidence of that asphalt road.

Yeah, but you'd only see that in sedimenting areas there were uplifted and then weathered; like orogenized river deltas. After that, you'd need to have a lot of samples in the sediment so that there'd be enough exposed rock to care to look at all. Then you'd need enough sample in the rock to detect above background noise. Then you'd need to conclusively explain away any natural causes for the presence of the asphalt,…

Post by Balgair » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 8:08 PM UTC

mongol wrote: post #167

Balgair wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but you'd only see that in sedimenting areas there were uplifted and then weathered; like orogenized river deltas. After that, you'd need to have a lot of samples in the sediment so that there'd be enough exposed rock to care to look at all. Then you'd need enough sample in the rock to detect above background noise. Then you'd need to conclusively explain away any natural causes for the presence of the asphalt,…

Yes but considering the total length of paved roads in the world, often using asphalt, how they stretch terrain from coast to coast, on all inhabited continents, that some of it will pass areas that will be uplifted and brought to daylight - I see it as inevitable. It might need a trained eye to see, but it would be there.